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Brexit. Why do Brits want Out of the EU?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 7 Sep, 2020 11:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
What are the reasons behind one of the most startling turns in the four-year Brexit saga?

Why is the UK seeking to unpick the EU withdrawal agreement?
Quote:
Brexit talks have been thrown into jeopardy after revelations that the UK government is to table legislation that will unpick some of the withdrawal agreement that Boris Johnson signed with the EU in January. It is one of the most startling turns in the four-year Brexit saga.

Opinion is divided as to whether this is sabre-rattling that will force the EU into a trade deal, or whether it will ultimately torpedo the talks.

What is this legislation?
The internal market bill is due to be published on Wednesday and will include elements that are expected to “eliminate the legal force of parts of the withdrawal agreement”.

The government is seeking to override the Northern Ireland protocol that requires checks on goods, animals and food crossing the Irish Sea from Great Britain into Ireland and rules on state aid for British firms. It is effectively giving the UK unilateral powers at ministerial level to decide what goods will go through the full panoply of checks and tariffs and which goods will not.

In July a white paper was published on the internal market, which is designed to ensure trading rules are the same in all four nations of the UK. The internal market legislation has already proved unpopular with the devolved governments in Wales and Scotland because of proposals for bodies that will ensure trading standards are uniform across the four nations.

What is the government saying?
Details are not known yet but government sources have confirmed the Financial Times report describing it as a “sensible fallback” in case the ongoing Brexit trade talks collapse and the UK leaves the single market and the customs union without a deal when the Brexit transition period ends on 31 December.

The environment secretary, George Eustice, said the government was “committed” to the withdrawal agreement, and the Northern Ireland deal had always included “loose ends” that needed to be tidied up, including “the type of administrative customs processes” that will be implemented on goods crossing the Irish Sea.

What is the reaction in Ireland?
The plans have astonished the Irish government. Simon Coveney, the foreign affairs minister, who was central to the negotiations that led to the withdrawal agreement, has said it was a “very unwise” move.

Neale Richmond, an MP from the same party, who also takes a keen interest in Brexit, described the reports as “extremely worrying”.

Richmond said: “The withdrawal agreement is an international treaty with obligations to International law. It cannot simply be overridden with domestic legislation. No doubt our negotiator, Michel Barnier, will approach this in a calm and patient manner as ever, but one must wonder: if the British government seriously intend to proceed along this path in order to sate domestic difficulty then why would anyone sign any treaty with them in the future?”

Can the UK break the withdrawal agreement?
The withdrawal agreement is an international treaty and legally binding. This is why the Irish, with the full backing of the EU, were so keen to get the arrangements for the Irish border nailed down in the withdrawal agreement. They knew the UK could not subsequently wriggle out of the deal without risking its international reputation as a trustworthy nation that stands by its legal commitments.

Practically, however, the government can do what it likes as it has an 80-strong majority.

A UK official acknowledged that the move would cause some “debate” with the EU. Others have said the move could be seen to be a “draconian” manouevre aimed at opting out of the full commitments on Northern Ireland.

Is the timing significant?
The revelations emerged on the eve of the resumption of talks on trade and the UK’s future relationship with the EU. The eighth round of negotiations are to start on Tuesday and the outlook is bleak.

Downing Street is saying the legislation had to be tabled in order to get it on to the statue books by 1 January. Others say the government knew how sensitive the Northern Ireland protocol was and deliberately chose it to force the EU to compromise on other elements in the talks.

What is the mood?
Nobody expects progress in the talks this week. Multiple sources say a leader-level political summit is now the only way to break the impasse.

What is on the agenda?
[pic "Agenda for round 8 of Brexit talks Photograph: Agenda for round 8 of Brexit talks/European Commission" @ original]
There are 11 “tables” of themed negotiations, including fair trade, governance, nuclear energy and mobility of social security rights for British and EU citizens affected by Brexit
What are the stumbling blocks in talks?
The main two stumbling blocks are state aid and fisheries.

The EU is concerned that after Brexit the UK will start pumping money into businesses, giving it a competitive advantage over EU member state factories and services. Downing Street wants the freedom to do just that as part of its levelling up programme and as part of a strategic effort to boost tech industries in the UK.

UK officials say the EU has nothing to be concerned about as the UK has repeatedly made it clear it “will not be a high subsidy regime”. Neither, they say, will Boris Johnson be taking orders from Brussels to share plans on state aid.

Although it represents less than 0.1% of GDP, fisheries remains a totemic issue for Brexit-supporting communities, and therefore of political value.

Again, the EU protests that the UK has yet to put forward a legal text for line-by-line discussion about a deal.
Tryagain
 
  1  
Mon 7 Sep, 2020 01:36 pm
European Commission president warns trade talks will be off if UK reneges on Brexit treaty.

The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£72 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £23 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£95 billion on trade in goods." Source HoC Library.

A no deal outcome will undoubtedly be damaging for both sides, but most damaging for the larger exporter, which is the EU. The UK negotiators have a democratic imperative to ensure the UK leaves on January 1st 2021, with the best deal available.

There can be no doubt on either side about this outcome which will happen whether the deal is "good" or less than optimal. This is a democratic decision taken by the people of the UK and that decision must and will be honoured. Those are Frost's absolute instructions.

The EU negotiators, on the other hand, have been told that they must secure an outcome which delivers the least possible disruption to the EU market, because not one of the 27 states voted for any interruption to the established trade arrangements. The UK can walk away confident that they have done their best to secure a deal but they leave anyway. Without a deal, the EU will suffer very significant trade disruption which will unquestionably be considered a dangerous failure to protect EU exporters.

It looks like a Japanese trade deal is imminent, but an EU Deal is becoming more unlikely by the day. The impact on the German car industry is likely to be devastating as the UK is one of its largest markets.

Anyone who might be tempted to suggest that "the EU just don't care about a hard Brexit" hasn't been listening the the German Car industry which has, on a number of occasions, described a hard Brexit as "potentially fatal". 

Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Mon 7 Sep, 2020 01:52 pm
@Tryagain,
Tryagain wrote:
The impact on the German car industry is likely to be devastating as the UK is one of its largest markets.
One in seven BMWs is already made in the Uk - they are called MINIS.
Bentley is owned by Volkswagen, Rolls Royce Motor Cars by BMW.

81% of all vehicles made in Britain are exported - the top export destination is the EU with 54.8%.
Less than 3 out of 10 cars made in the EU are exported (27.4%), with roughly one third of total exports heading to the UK (or 11.7% of total production).
Builder
 
  0  
Mon 7 Sep, 2020 11:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
So those stats would indicate that the auto industry will eventually benefit from the brexit; yes?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 7 Sep, 2020 11:24 pm
@Builder,
How, why? I think it's just the opposite.
Builder
 
  -1  
Mon 7 Sep, 2020 11:26 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Those EU nations won't stop importing vehicles made in the UK, post-brexit.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 7 Sep, 2020 11:32 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
EU has powers to punish UK if it breaches Brexit treaty, experts warn
Quote:
The latest Brexit dispute could end up in the European court of justice if it breaches the withdrawal agreement signed by Boris Johnson in January, legal experts have warned.

A dispute would trigger a specific legal process ending in the Luxembourg court – and if the UK was found to have breached the international treaty it signed in January, the EU has powers to punish the country.

The court can impose a heavy fine on the UK, suspend part of the withdrawal agreement, launch trade wars and impose tariffs or even sanctions on British exports.

“Because the agreement is an international treaty, the EU could bring proceedings against the UK, under the dispute resolution mechanism of the agreement,” said Catherine Barnard, a European law professor at Cambridge University.
[...]
In the event of a dispute a process would be triggered involving an initial three-month arbitration to try to resolve the matter.

“If the arbitration raises issues of EU law, which this absolutely seems to do, then it’s up to the court of justice,” said Barnard.

A UK official close to the Brexit talks played down the significance of the move, claiming it was necessary to give ministers these powers to ensure the Good Friday agreement was upheld in the event of no deal.

But the official said the internal market bill to be unveiled on Wednesday was designed to uphold the promise that traders in Northern Ireland would have unfettered access to the UK market.

“I think this is politics over law,” said Barnard. “I think they are trying to make it clear to the EU that they need to make some movement in the talks and they are using something as sensitive as the Northern Ireland protocol in order to precipitate that. But it is a very high-stakes gamble.”

At the heart of the issue is article 5 of the Northern Ireland protocol, which means tariffs are payable on goods entering the Republic of Ireland from another part of the UK via Northern Ireland. ...

The UK has been arguing that goods that remain in Northern Ireland – for example, food going from Tesco distribution centres in the Midlands to Belfast – should not be liable to duties.

It wants ministers in London to draw up the list of the goods “at risk” of going on to the republic, thus minimising the disruption in the internal British market.

Sources say the EU’s working assumption is that all goods are at risk of going into the republic – even goods on Tesco shelves – because the region is so small.

Lord Ricketts, the chair of the EU security and justice sub-committee, believes this is the real reason behind the new legislation, and accused the government of trying to opt out of parts of the agreement it does not now like.

“They signed a treaty containing such checks, then denied it, and now plans to breach the treaty,” he tweeted.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 7 Sep, 2020 11:35 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
Those EU nations won't stop importing vehicles made in the UK, post-brexit.
Same can be said the other way around. But all those cars will be more pricier - both for the customers as well as for the producers.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 12:05 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Fact sheet: Brexit and the auto industry
Quote:
The impact of a no-deal Brexit on the automobile industry would be potentially catastrophic. There is no other industry that is more tightly integrated than the European automotive industry, with highly complex supply chains stretching across Europe and production relying on ‘just-in-time’ delivery.

Indeed, as >this fact sheet< illustrates, the EU and UK automotive industries are closely interwoven today.

• 51% of all exported UK-built cars were bought by customers in the European Union last year.
In fact, more than 8 out of 10 passenger cars made in the United Kingdom are exported.

• The other way around, less than 4 out of 10 cars made in the EU27 are exported (38.3%), with roughly one third of total exports heading to the UK (or 12.4% of total production).
• The EU represents 85% of the UK’s passenger car imports by volume.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  0  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 12:42 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The court can impose a heavy fine on the UK, suspend part of the withdrawal agreement, launch trade wars and impose tariffs or even sanctions on British exports.


This "court" has no power over non-EU states, so tell 'em to shove their fine up their khyber pass. The UK can source whatever they like from other nations.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 01:05 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
This "court" has no power over non-EU states, so tell 'em to shove their fine up their khyber pass.
That's laughable - why did the UK then agree to it, sign the relevant treaties etc???

Builder wrote:
The UK can source whatever they like from other nations.
Sure - and then they disregard the agreement as you described in your above post, court with inverted commas, disregard agreements, treaties ...
Builder
 
  0  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 01:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
That's laughable

Why?Is it because you don't like the idea of Brexit, Walter?

Quote:
why did the UK then agree to it, sign the relevant treaties etc???


Why did the UK also not get rid of their currency, and adopt the euro, Walter? No commitment from the start?

Quote:
then they disregard the agreement as you described in your above post


It's called Brexit for a reason, Walter. Brits want out. I know it's your thread, but you're dragging this out for all that it's worth, right?

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 04:40 am
@Builder,
Seems, signing a treaty is just a joke for you.
It might work with you privately, but usually it's recognised among nations.

I've never thought that the UK would become "European" (not speaking about the EU); Brexit is totally fine for me.

The Euro is the official currency of 19 of the 27 member states of the European Union and four European microstates that are not EU members, the British Overseas Territory of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, and Montenegro and Kosovo - nothing more and nothing less.

It's not "my thread", and I didn't start it, too.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 06:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The head of the government’s legal department has quit, in protest at Boris Johnson’s plans to unpick protections for Northern Ireland in the Brexit agreement.
Jonathan Jones is said to be "very unhappy" about the controversial move to overwrite parts of the protocol signed with the EU last year and ratified.

The Attorney General's Office said it "can confirm Sir Jonathan has resigned but cannot comment further".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 06:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The UK's government Northern Ireland secretary told MPs in Parliament a couple of minutes ago, when asked by his Tory colleague Sir Bob Neill for an assurance that nothing in the internal market bill being published tomorrow would breach international legal obligations:
Quote:
I would say to my honourable friend that, yes, this does break international law in a very specific and limited way.


You don't here often that a lawyer says "My client only broke the law in a specific and limited way" in written or oral submissions. For very good reasons.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 07:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Former PM May made her displeasure clear, asking how the UK could "reassure future international partners" that it "can be trusted to abide by the legal obligations of the agreements it signs".

And Tory MP Tobias Ellwood, a former defence minister, tweeted: "Britain's soft power and respected voice on the international stage comes from our duty & resolve to defend & uphold international laws.This cannot change as we secure Brexit - otherwise our stance in holding China/Russia/Iran etc to account and upgrading the rules-based order is severely weakened."
0 Replies
 
Tryagain
 
  -1  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 09:43 am
"Peace for our time" was a declaration made by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Neville Chamberlain in his 30 September 1938 speech concerning the Munich Agreement and the subsequent Anglo-German Declaration. The phrase echoed Benjamin Disraeli, who, upon returning from the Congress of Berlin in 1878, stated, "I have returned from Germany with peace for our time". It is primarily remembered for its ironic value: less than a year after the agreement, Hitler's continued pressure for return of the Polish corridor and his subsequent invasion of Poland were followed by declarations of war...

No other country (apart from the USA who broke EVERY treaty with Native Americans) has broken more treaties that Germany.

Eighty years later the Forth Reich rules the EU and after offering the UK a Canada +++ deal, subsequently cancelled it when it seems likely it would be accepted.


The UK car industry (as Walter has pointed out) is foreign owned and used false readings to to cheat emission standards.


Jonathan Jones is NOT quitting over the Irish issue. The FT is reporting that Jones departure is over the Governments hardline Brexit stance. The Guido site says "one Government source simply tells us he is a remainer. He wasn't the first and wont be the last"

40 years of being told what to do by the EU and when the time comes to think for themselves - they can't hack it.

The sooner the USA puts the EU on the list of Rogue states the better for democracy.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 10:27 am
@Tryagain,
Tryagain wrote:
Hitler's continued pressure for return of the Polish corridor and his subsequent invasion of Poland were followed by declarations of war...

No other country (apart from the USA who broke EVERY treaty with Native Americans) has broken more treaties that Germany.

Eighty years later the Forth Reich rules the EU and after offering the UK a Canada +++ deal, subsequently cancelled it when it seems likely it would be accepted.
You probably know, Tryagain, that Hitler ruled between 1933 and 1945.

You might not know that the term "Third Reich" (drittes Reich).
Since the end of the Second World War, the Third Reich has been a name for National Socialist Germany.

From the 1920's onward, this term was used propagandistically by the "Völkisch Movement" and the National Socialists.

I find it impertinent to equate current democratic Germany with the Nazis of 1933-1945.

Besides that, Germany doesn't rule the EU but we have just now for half a year the presidency of the European Commission.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 10:57 am
@Tryagain,
Tryagain wrote:
Jonathan Jones is NOT quitting over the Irish issue. The FT is reporting that Jones departure is over the Governments hardline Brexit stance.
Sir Jonathan Guy Jones KCB QC has quit - confirmed officially this morning.
And you are wrong about the FT-report

Quote:
https://i.imgur.com/5ti7P00.jpg

Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Tue 8 Sep, 2020 11:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Sorry that I derail this thread. But I'm more than a bit angry

Tryagain wrote:
Eighty years later the Forth Reich rules the EU


I'm certainly not a supporter of the German conservatives. And I never favoured that my party (the Social Democrats) are the smaller partner in the current German government.
But the "Fourth Reich" (Viertes Reich) is a hypothetical future Nazi Reich that is the successor to Adolf Hitler's Third Reich.
Neo-Nazis use it to describe their envisioned revival of an ethnically pure state in reference to Germany under Hitler.
Neo-Nazi revisionists and other Holocaust deniers and right-wing extremists use the term "Fourth Reich" to describe their goal of reintroducing National Socialism in Germany by abolishing the Federal Republic.


Interestingly enough, the formulation of the "Fourth Reich" was not developed in right-wing, but rather in left-wing oppositional circles (with the exception of the political jokes that circulated in Nazi Germany behind closed doors): In 1936, the democratic journalist Georg Bernhard, a German Jew, drafted the "Draft Constitution for the Fourth Reich" while in exile in Paris.
He and other anti-fascist opposition activists wanted to propagate the positive idea of a successor Reich to Hitler's "Third" Reich, which required the embrace of the number 4 in order to emphasise this hopeful expectation.
So, originally, the term "Fourth Reich" was associated with a democratic, pacifist, post-Nazi Germany. It was intended to serve as a galvanising motto, as it were, for various opposition groups.
More at
Gavriel David Rosenfeld: The Fourth Reich: The Specter of Nazism from World War II to the Present (Cambridge University Press, 2019)
0 Replies
 
 

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