7
   

God is good but there is still suffering.

 
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 07:23 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
let's say you think there is a chance that 'determinism' is the reality


False dichotomy. Those aren't the only two choices.

Quote:
If determinism is the reality, how the **** would you know?


Well, people have been researching this, you see:

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=4OPYI8qbdEcC&pg=PR10&lpg=PR10&dq=Functional+Anatomy+of+the+Sense+of+agency:+Past+Evidence+and+Future+Directions&source=bl&ots=nptweniptd&sig=-gl0AgeclrUv8v2adGfZBvVO-ko&hl=ko&sa=X&ei=kdcdUKTBKYSZiAexkICICw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Functional%20Anatomy%20of%20the%20Sense%20of%20agency%3A%20Past%20Evidence%20and%20Future%20Directions&f=false
http://www.academia.edu/347887/Functional_Anatomy_of_the_Sense_of_agency_Past_Evidence_and_Future_Directions
http://www.mpg.de/research/unconscious-decisions-in-the-brain
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v11/n5/abs/nn.2112.html
http://videolectures.net/eccs08_haynes_udofdithb/

Quote:
All your clever tools for thinking, logic, reason, philosophical truisms, etc., would just be the false pre determined patterns in your brain that you have no way of determining whether they are True or false. They are just the way you are predetermined to see things.


What's the logical connection betwen "false" and "predetermined"? This appears to be an assumption that needs to be examined more closely.

Quote:
A is A? How do you know that? There may be some predetermined rule that says on the 100,000th time you look, A may actually be B.


Now we're getting warmer, I think. Scientific knowledge is by nature inferential, and thus, unlike dogmatic religious claims, never 100% conclusive. It's always subject to fresh observations. Nevertheless, as long as you've observed A to be A 99,999 times, you're obligated to report it thus. If you observe it to be otherwise in the next observation, then you're obligated to report that, too. I don't see where the free will debate has any connection, come to think of it.

Quote:
no matter how cold and sterile it leaves them


Maybe this is closer. It seems to point to both a fundamental lack of awareness of the human side of mathematicians' lives, and perhaps a latent emotive element driving you to cling to a god concept. Perhaps. What makes you think mathematicians are "cold and sterile"? Among the things that can be said with greatest certainty are mathematical and formal logical proofs, and they're profoundly distinct from theories derived from observation. In any event, Gödel's two incompleteness theorems show that even they ultimately rest on unproveable axioms.

All this said, there's a shitload of observational data, and none of it points with any logical credibility towards any god. In order to use what has been observed to support a god hypothesis, logical fallacies are required. Which is what I've been pointing out in your arguments.

Quote:
But If determinism is the reality, I can save myself the trouble of thinking about 'it' and just say 'whatever


You don't see the logical contradiction in this?

Quote:
it's all predetermined. And therefore, it's not debatable.


Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Non sequitur.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 07:27 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
The free will vs determinism debate stretches back to ancient Greece and further to ancient India. I'll spare the details, since there's another thread where the topic is being...debated.
Don't forget this one.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 07:32 pm
@neologist,
I don't think I participated in that one, but yeah. It's debatable. As evinced by all the debates about it... Including the one that's developing in this thread...
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 07:39 pm
@FBM,
Just tryin' to feather my nest. One thing about my oldie is the participation of the late Timberlandko, a true gentleman who will be sorely missed.

Even though he disagreed with me.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2015 07:41 pm
@neologist,
Didn't know the guy, but it's good to know that not everybody is as big a dickhead as I am when discussing things like this. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 05:40 am
@FBM,
Good reply, bumped up ! Wink
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 05:41 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
That last one, you mean? http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/eusa_shifty.gif
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 06:28 am
@FBM,
I was explaining why free will is not debatable to me. It still isn't.
I will leave you to practice that mental masterbatory practice with others.

It appears your real purpose was to segue into yet another repetition of 'you have no proof of God'. If so, good for you, mission accomplished.
timur
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 06:32 am
Leadfoot wrote:
mental masterbatory practice


Looks like a turbation to me:

Quote:
turbation

n disturbance, disorder, confusion
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 07:01 am
@timur,
Oh ****. I agree with timur? He agrees with me?

Life is complicated...
timur
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 07:08 am
@Leadfoot,
I thought you had put me on ignore...
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 07:34 am
@timur,
I peek once in awhile. Hell's bells, even Set comes up with a jewel occasionally.

Hope I haven't missed any good ones from you.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2015 07:35 am
@Leadfoot,
It would have saved a bit of confusion if you'd just included the "to me" part in your original statement. As for mental masturbation, I find it very difficult to imagine anything more self-aggrandizing than the belief that this putative almighty cosmic creator of all that is, seen and unseen gives a rat's ass about the human species or any individual in it. Seems more likely to be a masturbatory fantasy of ejaculating one's soul in a heavenly eternal orgasm, if you insist on that metaphor.

And...swinging all the way back to the OP, there's a whole lot of suffering to be accounted for. Babies born with horrific genetic and congenital defects, for starters. Then we could go on with the millions and millions of babies and children who have starved to death simply because they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time. Etc, etc, etc. If that god of yours did exist, I'd find it to be far too malicious and sadistic to be deserving of worship.
0 Replies
 
anthonypameladp
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2015 11:23 am
@hmodahl,
This does seem to be a stumbling block for many but this was not how God originally started things. Infact, the first human couple was given a prefect start. (Genesis 2:15-16) And that God has set in place a plan to undo all the suffering that has been experienced by man. Jesus told us to pray for The Kingdom of God which is the solution to undo all the suffering. (Matthew 6:9-15) In that pray we ask for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in the heavens. We are praying for better conditions for the earth and that was God’s original purpose .
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Dec, 2015 08:59 am
@anthonypameladp,
God suckered Adam and Eve (a stupid story on the face of it), and the Jesus bullshit does nothing to undo human suffering. I don't care if you cherish delusions, but i do care if you describe them as though they were statements of fact. They are not.
0 Replies
 
 

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