San Bernardino shooting: At least 14 people killed

@puzzledperson,

Quote:

As I've pointed out to you three times now, I made no presumption that Farook's mother knew nothing about the San Bernardino attacks.

Well, OK, but I was referring to presumptions you were making about facts that would exonerate her. I don't remember them exactly, but something along the lines that you would presume she had been told, for example, not to enter the garage and that she would honor any such order from her son. I would never "presume" that. I don't even find it credible.

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@layman,

I couldn't delete the post because it got an immediate thumbs-up. Once a reply or even a feedback occurs, attempts to delete generate an error message. Attempts to delete after a few minutes also generate an error message, but the message isn't the same (e.g. the former mentions dead hamsters).

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The problem of course is the "see no evil, hear no evil" posture taken by muslims who are in contact with the perpetrators. As I recall, after 9/11, a large majority of muslims said they approved of the attack, and regarded it as just retribution.

Over the years, more and more muslims "claim" they condemn the violence, but you never hear of them reporting suspicious behavior. On the contrary, leading muslim gangs like CAIR insist that it is "unfair" and discriminatory to suspect muslims.

A possible explanation for the lack of reports may be that sharia law requires death for apostates. And if you're a muslim who contradicts what your leaders say, that can be a very serious offense. So non-violent muslims might think they MUST keep quiet.

But if that's the case, and if they really do condemn violence, then why would they continue to be devout muslims? I guess the answer to that would be the same, eh? Because then they'll be killed.

That's why some suggest that we not allow ANY muslims into the country.

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@layman,

I don't assume anything about Farook's mother. For me, Farook's mother is just an image on the television screen. Conditional truths can always be changed by additional information.

I believe what I wrote was that I would assume that Farook, or indeed anyone carrying out felonious activities in a garage that occasionally opens up to the view of passersby, would take care to hide the evidence of those activities when not engaged in them. I also pointed out the logical possibility that Farook built bombs in the garage when his mother was at work, otherwise absent, or asleep. Finally, I pointed out the possibility that for individuals raised in a patriarchal Islamic culture like Pakistan, as Farook's mother was, curiosity might not be sufficient to override the explicit command of the only man of the house, should he have made an excuse ("I'm praying, don't disturb me in the garage"). For all I know he might even have installed a lock.

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@puzzledperson,

Quote:

For all I know he might even have installed a lock.

For all I "know," too. But you used the word "presume" not just "it is possible." The mother had her own car. Where was it parked? The son told (and argued with) his estranged father about his allegiance to ISIS (or al qada, whoever wanted to exterminate all jews). Do think he would NEVER confide those same sentiments to his dear mother, who he was intimate with? I don't.

The bottom feeders said she lived in an "isolated" part of the apartment. Heh, where might that be? This wasn't some huge mansion, with guest houses, and ****, ya know? Do they think we're all chumps?

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The parents of that kid who shot a bunch of people as UCSB called the cops, and mental health authorities about their son. Would a muslim do that, if it was only non-muslims who were at risk? Hard to say.

After the Paris shooting ONE muslim went on youtube to beg his fellow muslims to quit ignoring this **** and to report suspicious behavior. He did it as a means of self-preservations, telling his muslim audience that it would all backfire on them if they didn't, because sooner or later all muslims would be blamed. I agree with him. But did they?

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@layman,

Quote:

The bottom feeders said she lived in an "isolated" part of the apartment. Heh, where might that be? This wasn't some huge mansion, with guest houses, and ****, ya know? Do they think we're all chumps?

It was a two bedroom (probably one bath) apartment. So she had her own bedroom, eh? And she NEVER came out of it, that the idea?

From the LA times:

Quote:

The FBI made an accounting of all that it had seized from the townhouse of Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, and his wife, Tashfeen Malik, 29, who carried out Wednesday’s mass shooting in San Bernardino.

In the middle of the living room were two small black tables. On one was a four-page list that included these items: 13 boxes of 50 rounds (22 caliber). 1 bag of 1000 rounds (.223 caliber). budsgunshop.com invoice. Christmas lights.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-reporters-redlands-home-shooters-20151204-story.html

Surely the mother knew they had assault rifles, eh? She must have known that they shared her vision of establishing a muslim caliphate. But, of course, she simply had "no clue" of any danger to others. Probably because she had her own bedroom, eh?

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@layman,

layman: "As I recall, after 9/11, a large majority of muslims said they approved of the attack, and regarded it as just retribution."

Donald Trump claimed to recall something similar. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of it.

Well of course its unfair and discriminatory to suspect Muslims at large, just as it would be unfair and discriminatory to suspect Blacks in general for the crimes of Black criminals, or Hispanics, or for that matter Whites. Is suspicion of criminal behavior that is predicted merely on religion or race something which you advocate?

layman: "Over the years, more and more muslims "claim" they condemn the violence, but you never hear of them reporting suspicious behavior."

How would you hear of it? Do they call law enforcement, or do they call the newspaper? I've seen numerous FBI personnel say, on news shows and in attributed news articles, that Muslims are one of their best sources of information. I never hear of Blacks reporting suspicious behaviour about Blacks, but it seems likely that most police tips and complaints about, say, the activities of the Crips and the Bloods, comes from Black members of the communities where they are perhaps most overtly active.

Sharia law doesn't require death for apostates. The Koranic instruction is permissive, not mandatory. There are many Islamic countries that consider themselves to be guided by Sharia law that do not execute apostates. Like Judaism, modern versions of Islam are not practiced as literally prescribed, by most practitioners. Leviticus 20:13 calls for death to male homosexuals. And there are far more brutal and less discriminating acts and commandments to be found in the Old Testament. Whole cities of unbelievers, down to suckling infants, are put to death. That doesn't represent modern Judaism.

I don't think that in the United States most Muslims would hesitate to drop a dime on Muslim terrorists.

layman: "The problem of course is the "see no evil, hear no evil" posture taken by muslims who are in contact with the perpetrators."

Who specifically are you talking about? Please give me an example where a Muslim had foreknowledge of a criminal conspiracy but, without being a party to it, failed to report it, simply because the conspirators were Muslim.

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@puzzledperson,

Quote:

Who specifically are you talking about? Please give me an example where a Muslim had foreknowledge of a criminal conspiracy but, without being a party to it, failed to report it, simply because the conspirators were Muslim.

1. Foreknowledge of a criminal conspiracy is not the same as "suspicious behavior."

2. The muslim I cited, who is a muslim and lives in a muslim community in France, seemed to know that there was a Mafia-like "code of silence" amongst muslims.

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@layman,

layman: "Surely the mother knew they had assault rifles, eh?"

Semi-automatic AR-15 rifles are both legal and common.

Imagine! Christmas lights, on a table, in December! There are atheists who decorate with Christmas lights. In any case, it was news to me that Christmas lights are featured in an Al Qaeda magazine article on IEDs. Should we expect the grandmother to be better informed?

It isn't clear to me that Farook's mother wanted to establish a caliphate. She was a member of the Islamic Circle of North America. The word "caliphate" is not present in the Wikipedia article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Circle_of_North_America

There is in any case more than one way to establish a caliphate, just as there is more than one way to establish socialism. Bernie Sanders is a democratic socialist.

I'm not even sure what Farook and his wife expressed to close relatives. His father seemed to indicate that Farook sympathized at some level with ISIS, but he subsequently said that he doesn't remember giving that quote to the Italian newspaper which is the original source for it. Other family members as well as divorce proceedings cast doubt on the father's stability, though it wouldn't be the first time that divorce proceedings introduced wild allegations. Still, police reports do substantiate violent discord between the father on the one hand, and the mother and children (including Farook) who took her side in domestic disputes. So between all that, I'd say the water is muddy at best.

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@puzzledperson,

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Donald Trump claimed to recall something similar. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of it

Sez here:

Quote:

Poll of Egyptians, September 2002

The majority (52 percent) of Egyptians support the Sept 11th killings.

"How would you describe your feelings when you saw the destruction of New York's twin towers?" (Multiple answers allowed.) "They deserved it: 52%". "Admiration for the culprits: 28%".

The majority in Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and the Palestinian Authority express some support for Osama bin Laden.

http://markhumphrys.com/polls.islam.html

Those are Pew polls. Many other issues, such as favorable attitudes toward suicide bombings, are also reviewed at that site.

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@layman,

layman: "The muslim I cited, who is a muslim and lives in a muslim community in France, seemed to know that there was a Mafia-like "code of silence" amongst muslims."

There are poor neighborhoods in France, as in the United States, where criminal behavior in general flourishes and there is a code of silence or at least a realistic fear of violent reprisal which tends to discourage cooperation with the police. Some of those rough neighborhoods in France are populated primarily by immigrants, who happen to come from Muslim countries and who are themselves Muslim.

But if your source is saying (or reported to have said) that "Muslims" as a group cover for each other's criminal activity, then he doesn't seem very credible. The same thing was said about Italian immigrants at the turn of the century, and about the Irish, and freemasons, and Roman Catholics, who were assumed to be agents of a foreign power (Rome or the Vatican) conspiring to overthrow Protestant governments.

At any rate, please provide a link or an attributed quote, preferably in context.

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@puzzledperson,

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The word "caliphate" is not present in the Wikipedia article.

Yeah, so? Ya think wiki is the onliest source of info around?

Quote:

An ICNA teaching guide produced by its Chicago Tarbiyah Department is explicitly subversive in nature. It instructs Muslims to wage jihad until the entire globe is brought under Sharia. Muslims are told to challenge non-Muslim governments to move in a more Sharia-compliant direction and to support Muslims waging jihad abroad against the enemies of Islam . [Like ISIS, eh?]

It advocates the use of deception and advises to “work in public but organize in secret.” It specifically says not to disclose its "strategies, plans and organization." It draws from Muslim Brotherhood teachings...

Former ICNA President and Secretary-General Ashrafuzzaman Khan was formally charged with war crimes by Bangladesh’s International Crimes Tribunal in October 2012.

ICNA’s 2010 handbook laid out a five-level strategy to achieve a “united Islamic state, governed by an elected khalifah (caliph) in accordance with the laws of sharia (Islamic law).”

http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/islamic-circle-north-america-icna#

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@puzzledperson,

Quote:

At any rate, please provide a link or an attributed quote, preferably in context.

The complete youtube video was posted in the Paris thread. You can find it there. I assumed you had already viewed it.

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@puzzledperson,

Quote:

Imagine! Christmas lights, on a table, in December! There are atheists who decorate with Christmas lights. In any case, it was news to me that Christmas lights are featured in an Al Qaeda magazine article on IEDs. Should we expect the grandmother to be better informed?

Of course. You don't think she would want to know what the symbols of some infidel religion were doing in her house?

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@layman,

Mark Humphreys isn't Pew. When I clicked on the imbedded link in Humphrey's page citing the Egyptian approval of 9/11 statistic, it took me to a calendar. Donald Trump also cited phony statistics about Black-on-White crime taken from a neo-Nazi website.

I did find this at Pew:

"Nearly a decade after September 11, 2001, skepticism about the events of that day persists among Muslim publics. When asked whether they think groups of Arabs carried out the 9/11 attacks on the U.S., most Muslims in the nations surveyed say they do not believe this."

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/07/21/muslim-western-tensions-persist/

The same survey says that 75% of Egyptians don't believe that Arabs carried out the 9/11 attacks. This sounds like they are denying even a basic relationship between Islam and the attacks, not that they approve of it.

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@puzzledperson,

Quote:

This sounds like they are denying even a basic relationship between Islam and the attacks, not that they approve of it.

Well, that too, eh? WHOEVER did it, they approve.

Whoever said these muslims were self-consistent, eh?

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@layman,

Regarding the Clarion Project:

"The Clarion Project (previously the "Clarion Fund") is a nonprofit organization led by U.S. neoconservatives and rightwing Israelis that produces alarmist films and publications aimed at hyping the threat of "Radical Islam." "

". . . the group seems to treat any "moderate" behavior by Muslims as an example of taqiyya, a medieval Islamic doctrine that Clarion and other Islamophobic groups interpret to mean "deceit" in the interest of furthering "sharia Islam." Articles posted on the Clarion Project have claimed that violent jihad "is obligatory for Muslims everywhere"..."

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Clarion_Fund

P.S. A number of the claims made on the Clarion Project webpage you linked to point to other Clarion articles or other sources of dubious validity. In my experience with extremist propaganda (of whatever stripe) I often find that sources cited don't exist, have been misrepresented, or are untrustworthy. But it can take a great deal of work to track it down.

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@puzzledperson,

Quote:

Regarding the Clarion Project:

You forgot to find some rag like Al Jereeza which slanders Pew, eh?

And you ignore that they were quoting from the teaching handbooks of Farook's mom's gang, not writing some op-ed.

I'm not even going to bother commenting on just who your source (rightweb) is and what their stated agenda is.

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@layman,

Who says they approve? An untrustworthy source whose own linked citation to support the claim leads to a blank wall?

You mentioned Pew. Please find me a Pew survey or something equally reputable and documented, supporting your allegation that a majority of Egyptians approve of the 9/11 attacks, or that a majority of Muslims in general do.

1 Reply

San Bernardino shooting: At least 14 people killed

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