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San Bernardino shooting: At least 14 people killed

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 03:46 am
@NomoreNoDance,
NomoreNoDance wrote:
wow isn't that cheap! So, whatever you do your wrong.

zionism ISN't anti-semitic at all!

Gee, it's like saying of you hate chrysler cars you are actually saying you don't like batavus bikes.

How much more crazier can it get?!

Nazis who try to disguise their Nazism are still Nazis.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 03:46 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
Here's what the San Bernardino police chief said:

"Farook had attended the health department’s holiday party at the Inland Regional Center on Wednesday. Jarrod Burguan, the San Bernardino police chief, said Farook left after some sort of dispute. He said Farook then returned with Malik, in tactical gear, carrying weapons and explosives, at around 11 a.m.and opened fire."


Exactly. I see that as "leaving the door open" without committing to anything. Especially when viewed in retrospect and no "dispute" has been identified.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 03:58 am
@puzzledperson,
puzzledperson wrote:
No idea what you mean by a "Lovecraftian" sense of comfort. H.P. Lovecraft's fiction was full of weird cosmic conspiracies against mankind, hiding just below the surface appearance of normality.

Usually in his work mankind is not important enough to be conspired against. There may be plots that greatly harm humans, but humanity is more like roadkill that no one even bothers to notice as opposed to the intended targets of whatever threatens to harm us.

From the perspective of a Great Old One, humanity is little more than a culture of bacteria growing of the surface of an insignificant planet. Perhaps worth getting out the Lysol spray, but not really something to plot against.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 03:58 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
I don't know about "all" witnesses, but here's a second, independent witness named Juan Hernandez, who saw the getaway, interviewed by a local (San Bernardino) NBC affiliate (see the icon in the upper right screen corner), saying that the shooters were "three white men in military fatigues".
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s45OeXNRZng


Well that does add some weight to the "3 white men" claim, but, best I can tell from this short clip, this "witness" didn't see anybody shoot anybody. He just saw 3 men in a van in the vicinity.

Didn't you say elsewhere that the two dead bastards were identified by witnesses at the scene as the shooters (either by voice or face)?
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 07:09 pm
@layman,
layman wrote: "Didn't you say elsewhere that the two dead bastards were identified by witnesses at the scene as the shooters (either by voice or face)?"

I've seen, variously, from mainstream news outlets, that: the shooter said nothing; the shooter was identified through his voice; the shooter was identified through voice and build; that the police homed in on Farook originally only because survivors voiced suspicion since Farook had left the party in a huff shortly beforehand.

There are apparently at least three eyewitnesses who said that the shooters were three white men. I don't put particular emphasis on that, but it should be evaluated along with the rest of the media reports. The two I referenced were a phone interview with CBS and an on camera interview with a local NBC affiliate. Incidentally, I misrepresented my Google search terms, which were actually "San Bernardino eyewitness interview".

puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 07:28 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote: "Usually in his (Lovecraft's) work mankind is not important enough to be conspired against."

Except that these monstrous alien entities from other dimensions always seem to have the conquest of planet Earth as their ultimate goal, and the extermination or enslavement of mankind as the proximate goal, since mankind dominates the Earth. And they usually seem to require the intercession of human cults and necromancers and sorcerers performing quasi-occult rites in order to manifest. Plus they spend more time hiding out ("biding their time") than they do running the show. And finally, mankind is the force which always steps in at the last moment and manages to cork them up in the bottle or drive them back underground again. See for example The Dunwich Horror or The Case Of Charles Dexter Ward.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 01:12 pm
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
I've seen, variously, from mainstream news outlets, that: the shooter said nothing; the shooter was identified through his voice; the shooter was identified through voice and build; that the police homed in on Farook originally only because survivors voiced suspicion since Farook had left the party in a huff shortly beforehand. There are apparently at least three eyewitnesses who said that the shooters were three white men.


Well, there are so few details being released that you can't really rule out, on the basis of what the public has been told, the possibility that there was more than one "team" planning some terrorism on that day.

The two who got killed started a gun battle with cops, and were obviously up to no good. But that, in itself, doesn't prove they did this shooting. They weren't seen until about 4 hours later, when they did a "soft drive-by" of their bomb stash. Maybe after casing out their (separate) intended target, they decided they needed more pipe bombs, and that's why they came back, who knows?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 02:35 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Well, there are so few details being released that you can't really rule out, on the basis of what the public has been told...


I'm not suggesting that such things aren't "known," just that the basis for many conclusions being drawn by law enforcement aren't being made public.

It should, for example, be an easy matter to determine if the weapons those two used at the "gunfight" were the same as those used at the slaughter.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 03:13 pm
@puzzledperson,
It's clear that you have studied many of the reports concerning the attack and are not simply positing your opinion, but I've lost track of what the heck the issue is that you are trying to prove or disprove.

It doesn't appear that you are suggesting the couple may not have been responsible for the massacre.

It does appear that you are suggesting the attack was not premeditated, but I'm at a loss as to what difference this makes. They are both dead and so such a fact question will not arise in a trial and thus have a bearing on the level of charges filed against them.

In addition, while it may be the case that they did not wake up that morning with the intent of shooting people at that party, there is if not every reason, a whole lot of them to conclude that some sort of attempted massacre was in their future.

I can appreciate a desire to "get the facts straight," but, in this case, to what end? Clearly the absence of premeditation doesn't make the slaughter less heinous, regardless of what sort of argument there might have been and what might have been said to Farook. Again, there is plenty of indications that this couple were hell bent on mayhem and murder and so to the extent that they are representatives of a wider Islamist threat, there's no solace to be taken in thinking "Well this guy was just a kooky hot head and if the Jew at the party hadn't called him a camel schtupping towel head, nothing would have happened." If it hadn't happened at that party; on that day, it is almost certain that unless interrupted by persons or circumstances outside of their control, the couple would have seized on another opportunity.

If it's about whether or not the mother knew what was up, that will have to proven beyond a reasonable doubt if she is charged with conspiracy, aiding & abetting or anything similar. Opinions about her innocence or guilt expressed in an online discussion are not going to affect the outcome of any such trial.

It may be unfair to suggest this but your insistence on identifying what might be mitigating factors suggests a sympathy for these two that is troubling. I hasten to add that I am not suggesting that you are aligned with the goals of terrorists or anything even remotely close to that. It may be the case that you simply see yourself as a defender of truth and cannot abide any supposition or conjecture. I just don't understand why these two are deserving of so much of your time and effort.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 03:59 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
It may be unfair to suggest this but your insistence on identifying what might be mitigating factors suggests a sympathy for these two that is troubling. I hasten to add that I am not suggesting that you are aligned with the goals of terrorists or anything even remotely close to that.


It is more troubling to me, Finn, in light of the fact that PP started and maintained a thread designed argue that the Paris shooters had no ties to ISIS. Then, soon after, he argued that the Paris results were retaliation for France bombing ISIS (seeming to suggest that the French brought it upon themselves). Shortly thereafter, he appeared to take the position that there would never have been any Sunni resistance to Saddam's overthrow if it US soldiers hadn't been severely abusing Iraqi citizens. Then the "presumption" that Farook's mother knew nothing.

Put it all together, and you have to wonder....
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 06:21 pm
@layman,
Which I why I wrote it "may" be unfair.

I'm certainly not going to go so far as to suggest he is sympathetic to the goals of terrorists, but it does seem that he is bending over backwards to attempt to mitigate, in any way possible, the horror of their deeds.

This is de rigueur behavior for a certain segment of progressives.

It is what is behind the Attorney General of the United States telling the nation that she is more concerned about a backlash against Muslim Americans than attacks against Americans by Muslims (American or otherwise).

I imagine that they are operating from the foundational premise that Americans, by and large, are a very nasty bunch and are inclined to persecute anyone who isn't White and/or Christian. They feel compelled therefore to immediately defend Muslims, first as a group and then individually, whenever one of these attacks occurs. It's as if they are frustrated public defenders.

Immediately after an attack there is a concerted effort to avoid any speculation what-so-ever that a Muslim may be involved. This wouldn't be too unreasonable if it wasn't so often the case that speculation about "right-wing extremists" isn't so judiciously avoided.

Once the attacker(s) is identified as a Muslim, the possibilities of a non-religious motivation are floated and then often insisted upon: Work place violence, just a crazy loon. Even when the attacker is shouting praises to Allah as he guns people down, the insistence that religion isn't involved doesn't waver. If evidence shows up that the person was interested in Jihadi websites and posted extremist Islamic rhetoric on a FB page, it's not conclusive evidence of a religious motivation: "Well, yes the person may have had Islamist sympathies, but that doesn't mean that's why she drove down 40 people on the Vegas strip while shouting "Allahu Akbar!"

To be fair this is as far as most of these folks will go. Eventually the proof that the person was a jihadi is overwhelming and they give up on the alternate motivations. Of course they then immediately transition to the straw man of "Not all Muslims are terrorists," and "We can't allow a horrendous backlash against Muslims to occur."

Some, however, take it further and try to actually make excuses for the violence: "Charlie Hebdo asked for it!"; "What do you expect when we are using drones that kill entire wedding parties!"; "George Bush brought this on us!"

I'm not sure how far PP has gone along this spectrum, but his comments in other threads indicate he is someone I would describe as a "bleeding heart." Now, this isn't intended to be as offensive as it may seem. I think people who allow sentiment to override reason can be foolish, but not necessarily harmful. In some cases it's more sanctimony than sentiment, but, in this case I can't say.

I may be being thick here (it's been known to happen) but it's been tough to pin him down on what his motivation is for so diligently defending these individuals. Obviously I've posed these questions to him as you are responding to a post I directed towards him and I invite not only his answers to those questions, but his comments on anything I've written here.

I don't mean to make this specific to PP, because for me he is more representative of a segment of Americans than a individual actor, but I appreciate that distinction may be entirely lost on him or deemed completely irrelevant.

layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 07:12 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I agree with all the observations you've made in this post, Finn, and the tone of it. I'm not going to try to respond to it all, but I want to single this out for comment:

Quote:
This is de rigueur behavior for a certain segment of progressives.


Exactly. And no matter how much they want to profess their patriotism, it just never rings true. It's ALWAYS America's fault. America always does "far worse" than anyone else would even consider. They are completely one-sided in their criticisms. It brings to mind this article, from back when the war was just over:

Quote:
"I have a confession: I have at times, as the war has unfolded, secretly wished for things to go wrong," Gary Kamiya, executive editor of the left-leaning Internet journal Salon, wrote last week. Wished for the Iraqis to be more nationalistic, to resist longer.”

“Wished for the Arab world to rise up in rage. Wished for all the things we feared would happen. I'm not alone: A number of people who oppose the war have told me they have had identical feelings."

“Some of this is merely the result of pettiness -- ignoble resentment, partisan hackdom, the desire to be proved right and to prove the likes of Rumsfeld wrong, irritation with the sanitizing, myth-making American media. But some of it is something trickier:…

“Wishing for things to go wrong is the logical corollary of the postulate that the better things go for Bush, the worse they will go for America and the rest of the world. Pessimism is the dirty little secret of the antiwar camp -- dirty because there is something distasteful about wishing for bad outcomes.”


http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/04/11/liberation/index.html
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 07:21 pm
An another hard-core left-winger who finally saw how counter-productive the "always blame us" mentality was:

Quote:
“In October, after more than 20 years at the left's house organ, the Nation, Hitchens announced his decision to leave the magazine. "

"I have come to realize that the magazine itself takes a side ... the amoral side ... in this argument and is becoming the voice and echo chamber of those who truly believe that John Ashcroft is a greater menace than Osama bin Laden," he said


Hitchens was thereafter vilified by the left wing for this position. An apostate they labelled "Hitch, the Snitch."
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 11:47 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz: "I can appreciate a desire to "get the facts straight," but, in this case, to what end?"

The title of this discussion thread explains what this is about. Presumably, participants in the discussion would be interested in establishing the facts of the issue at hand, or at least attempting to establish which theories are more plausible, based upon the information available as it develops. For me personally, it's about honing my own critical thinking, research, debate, and writing skills.

Finn dAbuzz: "If it's about whether or not the mother knew what was up, that will have to proven beyond a reasonable doubt if she is charged with conspiracy, aiding & abetting or anything similar. Opinions about her innocence or guilt expressed in an online discussion are not going to affect the outcome of any such trial."

You don't object when speculators assume her guilt, but only when someone patiently attemps to point out the fallacies of weak inferences and suggests restraint.

Finn dAbuzz: "It may be unfair to suggest this but your insistence on identifying what might be mitigating factors suggests a sympathy for these two that is troubling."

I'm not aware of any mitigating factors. You seem to have constructed an imaginary model of me, and after supplying the dialog for both sides have seen fit to reproach the actual me for the sins of the imaginary me.

Finn dAbuzz: "I just don't understand why these two are deserving of so much of your time and effort."

For the same reason that discussions about golf balls rolling down wooden ramps, or any of the other 417 comments on a wide variety of subjects have occupied my time and effort. I also do crosswords, Sudoku, and IQ variety puzzles. Aside from that, what I mostly watch on television is the three major cable news stations (FOX, CNN, MSNBC), all of which frequently annoy me with viewpoints which I consider to be superficial, uninformed, and biased. Because the San Bernardino shootings occupied much cable news rec
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 12:20 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz: "I can appreciate a desire to "get the facts straight," but, in this case, to what end?"

The title of this discussion thread explains what this is about. Presumably, participants in the discussion would be interested in establishing the facts of the issue at hand, or at least attempting to establish which theories are more plausible, based upon the information available as it develops. For me personally, it's about honing my own critical thinking, research, debate, and writing skills.

Finn dAbuzz: "If it's about whether or not the mother knew what was up, that will have to proven beyond a reasonable doubt if she is charged with conspiracy, aiding & abetting or anything similar. Opinions about her innocence or guilt expressed in an online discussion are not going to affect the outcome of any such trial."

You don't object when speculators assume her guilt, but only when someone patiently attemps to point out the fallacies of weak inferences and suggests restraint.

Finn dAbuzz: "It may be unfair to suggest this but your insistence on identifying what might be mitigating factors suggests a sympathy for these two that is troubling."

I'm not aware of any mitigating factors. You seem to have constructed an imaginary model of me, and after supplying the dialog uefor both sides have seen fit to reproach the actual me for the sins of the imaginary me.

Finn dAbuzz: "I just don't understand why these two are deserving of so much of your time and effort."

For the same reason that discussions about golf balls rolling down wooden ramps, or any of the other 417 comments on a wide variety of subjects have occupied my time and effort. I also do crosswords, Sudoku, and IQ variety puzzles.

Aside from that, what I mostly watch on television is the three major cable news stations (FOX, CNN, MSNBC), all of which frequently annoy me with viewpoints which I consider to be superficial, uninformed, and biased. Because the San Bernardino shootings occupied cable news broadcasts recently, it's something on my mind. I cannot talk back to the television newscasters and talking heads, but I can speak my mind here.

Additionally, I happen to like the Henry Fonda movie, Twelve Angry Men. I think it represents something laudible. I do not insist that all of my opinions or lines of argument will turn out to be correct in the end, but occasionally it occurs to me that a counterweight to popular assumptions is in order.
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 12:25 am
@puzzledperson,
Somehow an incomplete, duplicate version of my last reply to Finn dAbuzz got posted. I regret that I was unable to delete it. The second, slightly longer copy is the correct version of the text.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 12:26 am
@puzzledperson,
Why can't you delete it? On my own posts I always have 4 options, to wit:

Reply edit Delete report
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 12:34 am
@layman,
You can't delete after a certain period. (And if there's a response, I think.)
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 12:37 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You can't delete after a certain period. (And if there's a response, I think.)


OK, I didn't know that. I mean, I knew it about edit, but I've never had trouble deleting a post. I guess I did it quickly. I thought PP might be thinking that the way to delete (or at least greatly minimize) it might be to "erase" everything via the edit function.
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 12:46 am
@layman,
I didn't state or maintain that the Paris attackers had no ties to ISIS. I argued that it was unlikely that the Paris attacks were organized, equipped, and manned by the leadership of the organization. That's an important distinction, if true, when attempting to craft an effective law enforcement response to such events, and when allowing important foreign policy decisions that might cost thousands of lives (American and foreign) to be predicated upon dubious assumptions. I did say that the leadership of ISIS is clearly responsible to the extent that it has called for sympathizers in western countries to carry out attacks.

I never suggested that there wouldn't have been any Sunni resistance in Iraq to American occupation, had it not been for the misbehavior of American troops. There was resistance by Sunnis loyal to Saddam Hussein from the first day that American and coalition troops entered the country. What I did suggest, and continue to suggest, is that without American troops abusing Iraqi civilians, there would not have developed the broad popular support for an uprising against occupation forces; and that without a popular resistance, the later insurgency by Al Qaeda in Iraq and others, would have had nothing to piggyback upon, would likely not have developed, and would have had little traction if it had independently developed.

As I've pointed out to you three times now, I made no presumption that Farook's mother knew nothing about the San Bernardino attacks. I explicitly pointed out that, while it may turn out that she did, there is no reason to presume that she knew, merely because she shared a residence.

 

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