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San Bernardino shooting: At least 14 people killed

 
 
puzzledperson
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 03:46 am
@layman,
I don't make a habit of watching "viral" videos, whatever their nature. If you have a quote, spit it out and link to it. I'm not doing your homework and I refuse to spend half an hour getting a two minute video to play on my slow Wi-Fi connection.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 03:52 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
P.S. A number of the claims made on the Clarion Project webpage you linked to point to other Clarion articles or other sources of dubious validity. In my experience with extremist propaganda (of whatever stripe) I often find that sources cited don't exist, have been misrepresented, or are untrustworthy. But it can take a great deal of work to track it down.


Heh, well aint that convenient, eh? Here, I tracked for you, very easily. You can see the entire teaching guide here. And you can look at the footnote 2a to see a link where exact pages are given for the statements made.

http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/mainstream-muslim-org-puts-out-jihadi-educational-guide#popup-1
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 03:55 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
Please find me a Pew survey or something equally reputable and documented, supporting your allegation that a majority of Egyptians approve of the 9/11 attacks, or that a majority of Muslims in general do.


I'm not going to take the time right now. If you really have any interest in seeing whether your claim that NO EVIDENCE exists is accurate, do a little of your own research, eh?
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 03:56 am
@layman,
layman: "And you ignore that they were quoting from the teaching handbooks of Farook's mom's gang, not writing some op-ed."

Who says they were? You are astonishingly naive. If someone posts a link to a webpage quoting "Jewish handbooks" from the International Protocols of Zion, would that make the case?

First you have to establish that such a handbook exists. Then you have to establish that it is being properly represented. Then you have to establish the connection to the organization in question, not just some other group that is asserted to be affiliated with it. Then you have to establish that it really represents the views of the organization, not just an individual or a local chapter.

There are Holocaust deniers who are officers of chemist's unions. Does that mean that chemists are Holocaust deniers?

layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 03:57 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
I refuse to spend half an hour getting a two minute video to play on my slow Wi-Fi connection.


Suit yourself.
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:02 am
@layman,
Maybe Farook's mother bought the Christmas lights for decorating. The only published photo of her I've seen shows her without a head covering, in western clothing, smiling for the camera. The doesn't seem too radical to me.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:07 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
First you have to establish that such a handbook exists.


Look at the fuckin book, fool.

It's 320 pages long, complete with a table of contents, an index, a 25-week lesson plan, and the organization's imprimatur.

If you think that can be completely fabricated and published on the web without recourse, then you got no damn business calling anyone naïve, eh?

Here's a link. Call them RIGHT NOW and inform them that they've been libeled, eh? These guys are sue happy, and they might give you a cut, ya know?

http://icnachicago.org/
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:10 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
Maybe Farook's mother bought the Christmas lights for decorating.... The doesn't seem too radical to me.


She don't look that way to YOU, eh? Well, aint that special?

Maybe the Zionists really did the whole job and framed the poor muslims for it, eh? Ask Q. He knows. Then you will have confirmation of a "maybe."
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:21 am
@layman,
I couldn't find the document, much less footnote 2a or any other footnotes. I did find the same Clarion Project article that you linked to before, and it had this imbedded link to a document described as an "ICNA instruction guide produced by the Chicago Chapter":

http://m.clarionproject.org/document/icna-training-guide

But clicking on the link gives a title over an otherwise blank page.

If the supposed document were an organizational statement, it would be produced by the national organization, not a local chapter. And if you really think that the Chicago Chapter has a "Tarbiya Department" I have some prime real estate to sell you.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:27 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
I couldn't find the document, much less footnote 2a or any other footnotes. I did find the same Clarion Project article that you linked to before, and it had this imbedded link to a document described as an "ICNA instruction guide produced by the Chicago Chapter":

http://m.clarionproject.org/document/icna-training-guide

But clicking on the link gives a title over an otherwise blank page.


Then you aint even lookin. Look again. Your link works fine for me. Here's the article linked in footnote 2a:

http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/mainstream-muslim-org-puts-out-jihadi-educational-guide

Quote:
The training guide produced by the Tarbiyah Department of ICNA’s Chicago chapter was provided to the Clarion Project by former FBI Special Agent John Guandolo.
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:35 am
@layman,
The supposed Islamic Circle of North America training guide was provided to the Clarion Project by former FBI special agent John Guandolo, who was dismissed from the FBI for bizarre conduct and ethical breaches:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2015/08/10/disgraced-former-fbi-agent-john-guandolo-providing-anti-muslim-law-enforcement-training

and who claims that the head of the CIA is a secret Muslim agent for the Saudi government.

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/17/virginia_country_sheriff_hosting_anti_muslim_training_by_disgraced_conspiracy_theorist_partner/

You sure pick some winners, layman.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:39 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
And if you really think that the Chicago Chapter has a "Tarbiya Department" I have some prime real estate to sell you.


Is there ANYTHING that you won't make up on the spot to advance your Islamic apologetics, true or not, researched or not? Anything?

Here, check ICNA's own website. I did your (lack 0f) work for you.

http://www.icna.org/tarbiya-department/

Now I'm through with you on this topic. I can't sense any intellectual honesty coming from your direction.

You must be givin away real estate REAL CHEAP, eh? OK, I'll buy.
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:45 am
@layman,
I still can't get the link to the document to work. But since the Clarion Project says that they got it from John Guandolo, and John Guandolo is an untrustworthy and professionally disgraced wackadoo, that discredits both the document and the Clarion Project.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 04:57 am
@puzzledperson,
What's this big-ass "disgrace" about, eh? Well, according to your own source, the commie-ass Salon, who, like you, regularly mongers in innuendo, insinuation, and general ad hom attacks:

Quote:
Guandolo joined the bureau’s Counterterrorism Division in the wake of 9/11, but by 2005 he was posing as a driver for a “star witness” in the corruption case of former Congressman William Jefferson (D-LA). He made “inappropriate sexual advances” to that witness and soon was having an “intimate relationship…that he thought could damage an investigation.” He also unsuccessfully solicited the witness for a $75,000 donation to an organization he supported and carried on extramarital affairs with female FBI agents.

Guandolo’s actions risked tanking the government’s prosecution of Jefferson, and he faced an investigation by the bureau’s Office of Professional Responsibility. Though he later expressed “deep remorse” for his actions, he resigned from the bureau in December, 2008, ahead of an investigation by the Office of Professional Responsibility.


Omigod! He "carried on extramarital affairs with female FBI agents." He [GASP!] fucked a witness he was driving around!!

That CERTAINLY proves the teaching manual was fabricated, whole cloth, don't it!?

CALL INCA!
RIGHT NOW!

If you delay at all, someone else may be the first to make them aware of this libel, and you won't get your cut!

layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 05:00 am
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
I still can't get the link to the document to work. But since the Clarion Project says that they got it from John Guandolo, and John Guandolo is an untrustworthy and professionally disgraced wackadoo, that discredits both the document and the Clarion Project.


How convenient. Your own link works for others, but not you. And you know it's false beforehand--WHOODA THUNK!?

Later, chump. There are honest, reasonable people I can talk to on this site.
0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 05:04 am
@layman,
It's entirely possible that I misunderstood the word "tabiya" after reading the Clarion Project's wackadoo misrepresentations. I certainly didn't make anything up, though. I'm also a little puzzled why the webpage for the Tabiyah Department seems to show a date of December 5, 2005.

In any case, I don't blame you for tucking your tail between your legs and fleeing, after having your claims exposed as wackadoo propaganda.
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 05:10 am
@puzzledperson,
I did find this:

(Washington, D.C., 12/2/2015) –The US Council of Muslim Organizations (USCMO), a coalition of leading national and local Muslim organizations, offers its sincere condolences to the families and loved ones of the victims in the San Bernardino shooting and pray for quick recovery of those who were injured.

USCMO denounces this and every act of violence. This heinous act can never be justified under any circumstances. USCMO commends the first responders to this senseless attack for their swift and courageous handling of the situation.

Organizational members of USCMO include: American Muslims for Palestine (AMP), Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Muslim Alliance in North America (MANA), Muslim American Society (MAS), Muslim Legal Fund of America (MLFA), Muslim Ummah of North America (MUNA), The Mosque Cares (Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed), American Muslim Alliance (AMA).

http://www.muslimamericansociety.org/content/uscmo-strongly-condemns-san-bernardino-killings/

Note that ICNA is a member.


0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 05:31 am
@layman,
More on John Guandolo, source of the supposed ICNA "instruction guide" touted by the Clarion Project:

In Guandolo’s mind, the U.S. government has already been infiltrated by the enemy –– Muslims. He raised eyebrows –– and was widely mocked –– a year ago with wild claims about John Brennan, who was later confirmed as director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Speaking on a far-right online radio show, he claimed that Brennan had “interwoven his life professionally and personally with individuals that we know are terrorist” and given them access to top government officials. What’s more, he claimed Brennan “brought known Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood leaders into the government and into advisory positions.”

Why would Brennan do such things? Guandolo knows. It’s because Brennan was the target of a successful “counterintelligence operation against him” in Saudi Arabia and converted to “Islam when he served in an official capacity” there.

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/17/virginia_country_sheriff_hosting_anti_muslim_training_by_disgraced_conspiracy_theorist_partner/

No insinuation, innuendo, or ad hominem there, just his own words from recorded public interviews. Which is more than I can say for your description of Salon as "commie-ass". I had no idea you were so rabid.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 05:50 am
For anyone who cares, you can trust the highly partisan Salon, or more neutral parties, like Senators Joseph Lieberman and Jon Kyl and the FBI.

Quote:
Guandolo's Bio

One of the top terrorism experts in the United States, John Guandolo provides analysis, factual data, and training and education to local state and national leaders about threats to the United States, particularly from the global Islamic movement. His areas of expertise include specialized targets such as oil platforms, ship boarding, and unique structures; VIP protection; urban climbing; security planning; and counter-threat driving. John Guandolo received the Defender of the Homeland award from Senators Joseph Lieberman and Jon Kyl in 2007.

In his 12-year career with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, John Guandolo became the Washington Field Office’s SWAT team leader and an FBI advanced-capability medic. He also designed and implemented the organization’s first counterterrorism education and training program focused on the Muslim Brotherhood and related groups. In addition to his domestic work, John Guandolo advises foreign governments on issues pertaining to security.

http://muckrack.com/johnguandolo/bio

If you care to follow some of the links that Salon itself gives for it's sensationalist claims, you will see that this guy is quite rational and gives a plausible basis for his claims, which were "fact-checked" here:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/11/rumor-check-ex-fbi-agent-claims-obamas-cia-nominee-is-really-a-secret-muslim-recruited-by-saudis/

They note that: "Guandolo’s background has already been dragged into any dispute over these accusations by political opponents in order to discredit him. Anyone who might have verified his claims (if they are verifiable) may be hesitant to risk being treated the same way."

From another source:

Quote:
Shortly after 9/11, Mr. Guandolo began an assignment to the Counterterrorism Division of the FBI’s Washington Field Office developing an expertise in the Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic Doctrine, the global Islamic Movement, and a myriad of terrorist organizations to include Hamas, Al Qaeda, and others. In 2006, Mr. Guandolo created and implemented the FBI’s first Counterterrorism Training/Education Program focusing on the Muslim Brotherhood and their subversive movement in the United States, Islamic Doctrine, and the global Islamic Movement. He was designated a “Subject Matter Expert” by FBI Headquarters.

This course was hailed as “groundbreaking” by the FBI’s Executive Assistant Director in a brief to the Vice President’s National Security Staff. For his efforts, in 2007 Mr. Guandolo was presented the “Defender of the Homeland” Award by U.S. Senators John Kyl and Joseph Lieberman on behalf of the Center for Security Policy in Washington, D.C. While in the FBI, Mr. Guandolo received two (2) United States Attorney’s Awards for Investigative Excellence.


https://understandingthethreat.wordpress.com/author/uttjg/

2 awards for "investigative excellence from the US Attorney, eh?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 06:14 am
But that guy aint the issue to begin with. The issue is a teaching manual published by INCA. This guy worked for the FBI on counter-terrorism for years, and would certainly be in a position to know things about INCA that they don't want to make public.

If this manual is "fabricated" (and on the face of it that seems unlikely when you examine it), then they have every right to redress, including an injunction from publicizing it. I haven't heard where they tried to take any such action.
 

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