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Religion & Science

 
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 11:43 am
Quote:

You don't need a telescope to watch the moon. When the moon and sun are in the sky together, you can observe their relative positions and which part of the moon is bright and which is dark. You seem to think that people a long time ago weren't very intelligent...

I don't say that, but we had no scientists at that day to discover that plus this information is so accurate. People at that time with their naked eyes and simple tools could not answer all those questions IMO precisely.
If you think they could discover the moon and sun light, I don't think they could discover that the sun moves to a destenation. They could make an assumptions but not saying this what happens.

Not that intelligent I must say, Habel telescope was not available then.
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 11:48 am
limbodog wrote:
Hey Glad_to,

Still looks to me like most of what you're describing is a very careful effort to find similarities between allegory and modern day understanding. Yes, the coincidences are interesting, but for the most part they don't convey much more than an ability to observe their surroundings 1400 years ago (or more)


allegory? i don't see them like that. They are facts made by God to people to believe in him, they were not used as allegories.

I don't believe that such information are coincidences, they were told as facts not as "maybe" or "perhaps"

but if that what you believe, i can add more, Quran and sunnah contains many more.

and do not forget that those been told by illiterate person when muslims were only few hunderd with no much time for science (all arabs were fighting them)
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 11:51 am
If there is a ridgeline to the west of your village, you can make not of where the sun goes down each night. You can also watch what constellation rises where the sun has set. You can do the same thing with the moon. If people observe this over numbers of years, and keep track of these things, they can come to realize that these things happen in cycles. It doesn't require any sort of technology at all. For people who depended on calendars for agriculture or on the stars for navigation, observing the sky was a very important skill to have.

As for the "40 days" thing -- as has been noted, it's a very commonly used figure. I'd be cautious about reading too much into it.
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 12:14 pm
if you people still feel that all of this information are pure coincidences
i still have more Smile

Q: The lowest district\land in the world?
A: answer can be found here (the dead sea) http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/11/10/dead.sea/

Quote:

7- dead sea

The lowest district in the world has been mentioned in the Quran before fourteen century.

The Quranic verse deals with the battle which took place between the Romans & the Persians at the early dawn of Islam. The Romans represent people of the holy book “The Bible” whereas the Persians were idol & fire worshipers. However, in that battle the Persians defeated the Romans. The Muslims did not like it. They did not like idol & fire worshipers to defeat the followers of a holy book. Muslims felt sad. Therefore Allah condoled Muslims by informing them a future event which will take place. In that event, Quran informed, the Roman will defeat the Persians.

Quran said “(((((The Roman Empire has been defeated – In the lowest land (even) after (This) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious – Within a few years.)))))

Ard the arabic word for land/district/earth

Loswet means in pure arabic Aqsaa.


Please don't tell me that muslims were then at that place and the new world was dicovered.

Honestly, don't you think this was impossible then?
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 01:54 pm
PLEASE READ THIS....

patiodog wrote:

If there is a ridgeline to the west of your village, you can make not of where the sun goes down each night. You can also watch what constellation rises where the sun has set. You can do the same thing with the moon. If people observe this over numbers of years, and keep track of these things, they can come to realize that these things happen in cycles. It doesn't require any sort of technology at all. For people who depended on calendars for agriculture or on the stars for navigation, observing the sky was a very important skill to have.


You are talking about different thing. Sun rise and Sun Set are due to earth rotation. It has nothing to do with sun movement.
The phrase indicates "precisely" that the sun is moving to its destination (where it is going to settle)

Examine Quran sentence again:
((("The sun runs its coarse to a settled place That is the decree of the Almighty, the All Knowing.” Qur’an, 36:38)))))

It is a precise phrase, not just running, but also the destination is mentioned where the sun is going to settle. I believe this statement could not be observed/discovered old days. Maybe the movement of the sun could be guessed but the destination part is kind a impossible IMO.

Modern astronomy confirms that the solar system is indeed moving in space at a rate of 12 miles per second towards a point situated in the constellation of Hercules ( alpha lyrae ) whose exact location has been precisely calculated. Astronomers have even give it a name, the solar apex.

Again, I repeat the 42 nights is very precise and not just number used at the old days. I don't recall through our history the 42 days and nights. I don't how west used the 42 nights.

Please read this:

Read this from http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/faculty/ckaczor/Noonan.htm :

Facts of Fetal Development
Day 1 - conception takes place.
7 days - embryo implants in mother’s uterus.
10 days - mother’s menses stop.
18 days - heart begins to beat.
21 days - pumps own blood through separate closed circulatory system with own blood type.
28 days - eye, ear and respiratory system begin to form.
42 days - brain waves recorded, skeleton complete, reflexes present.

Also From http://diskbooks.org/factsabort.html

Day 40: Brain waves can be detected and recorded.
Day 42: The liver is now taking over the production of blood cells and the brain begins to control movement of muscles and organs.




It is not 41 it is not 39 days, it is 40 and 42 mentioned by prophet......

best regards
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 03:32 pm
Quote:
The phrase indicates "precisely" that the sun is moving to its destination (where it is going to settle)

Examine Quran sentence again:
((("The sun runs its coarse to a settled place That is the decree of the Almighty, the All Knowing." Qur'an, 36:38)))))


How is this precise? It just says the sun goes somewhere -- which is how many cultures have described what the sun does at night, believing that the sun moves in relation to the earth (and not vice versa). Does the Quran even mention that the earth moves around the sun, and not vice versa?



And about fetus size and the ability to examine human embryos -- you cite webmd.com to show that the embryo is between 0.08 and 0.16 inches at week 6 -- but the site lists information for the beginning of each week, not the end. So, just as day 1 is the beginning of week 1, so is day 43 the beginning of week 7. At the beginning of week 7, the fetus is 0.44 to 0.52 inches in length; this is plenty large enough to examine. Moreover, because a great deal of growth takes place during week 6 (a tenth of an inch to half an inch, a five-fold increase in size) it is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is a period when something very significant happens to the embryo.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Aug, 2004 03:47 pm
Oh, and they had magnifying glasses in that part of the world back then (and for a millennium or so before).

http://www.nsf.gov/nstw_questions/misc/quest104.htm
Quote:
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 06:15 am
Quote:

How is this precise? It just says the sun goes somewhere -- which is how many cultures have described what the sun does at night, believing that the sun moves in relation to the earth (and not vice versa). Does the Quran even mention that the earth moves around the sun, and not vice versa?


Quran mentioned that all of them moves, not just the sun. I invite you to read the next texts (orbits , day and night, etc…).

If you believe that the sun movement could be gueesed I could agree with you but what about the final destination (towards a point situated in the constellation of Hercules ( alpha lyrae ) whose exact location has been precisely calculated. Astronomers have even give it a name, the solar apex.)
How this could be discovered please?


Quote:

And about fetus size and the ability to examine human embryos -- you cite webmd.com to show that the embryo is between 0.08 and 0.16 inches at week 6 -- but the site lists information for the beginning of each week, not the end. So, just as day 1 is the beginning of week 1, so is day 43 the beginning of week 7. At the beginning of week 7, the fetus is 0.44 to 0.52 inches in length; this is plenty large enough to examine. Moreover, because a great deal of growth takes place during week 6 (a tenth of an inch to half an inch, a five-fold increase in size) it is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is a period when something very significant happens to the embryo.


Read above, 42 days not 5 weeks or 6 or 7.
But let's assume that you are right, how could the prophet figure (in case of any abortion) that the fetus he saw was 42 days old?

Also what is you opinion about the creation of universe and the lowest land please?
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 06:19 am
8-

Quote:

Orbits
Today, the laws governing the celestial systems are well known. Galaxies are balanced by the position of stars and planets in well-defined orbits, as well as the interplay of gravitational forces produced by their masses and the speed of their movements. But is this not what the Qur’an describes in terms which have only become comprehensible in modern times. In chapter al-Ambiyaa we find:

“(God is) the one who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion.” Qur’an,21:33

The Arabic word which expresses this movement is the verb yasbahoon which implies the idea of motion produced by a moving body, whether it is the movement of one’s legs running on the ground, or the action of swimming in water. In the case of a celestial body, one is forced to translate it, according to its original meaning, as ‘to travel with its own motion.’

The Day and Night
The Qur’anic description of the sequence of day and night would, in itself, be rather commonplace were it not for the fact that it is expressed in terms that are today highly appropriate. The Qur’an uses the verb kawwara in chapter az-Zumar to describe the way the night ‘winds’ or ‘coils’ itself around the day and the day around the night.

“He coils the night upon the day and the day upon the night.” Qur’an, 39:5

The original meaning of the verb kis to coil a turban around the head. This is a totally valid comparison; yet at the time the Qur’an was revealed, the astronomical data necessary to make this comparison were unknown. It is not until man landed on the moon and observed the earth spinning on its axis, that the dark half of the globe appeared to wind itself around the light and the light half appeared to wind itself around the dark.

Expansion of the Universe
Chapter ath-Thaariyaat of the Qur’an also seems to allude to one of the most imposing discoveries of modern science, the expansion of the Universe.

“I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it.” Qur’an,51:47

The expansion of the universe was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is supported by the calculations of astrophysics. The regular movement of the galactic light towards the red section of the spectrum is explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus, the size of the universe appears to be progressively increasing.
Conquest of Space
Among the achievements of modern science is the “conquest” of space which has resulted in mans journey to the moon. The prediction of this event surely springs to mind when we read the chapter ar-Rahmaan in the Qur’an:

“O assembly of Jinns and men, if you can penetrate the regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate them! You will not penetrate them except with authority.”
Qur’an,55:33


Authority to travel in space can only come from the Creator of the laws which govern movement and space. The whole of this Qur’anic chapter invites humankind to recognize God’s beneficence.

0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 01:06 pm
Quote:
how could the prophet figure (in case of any abortion) that the fetus he saw was 42 days old?


What, the guy never talked to other people -- doctors, midwives, people who made observations about the world? By the way, I'm looking for any mention of the ovum here, and it would appear that all of the credit is going to sperm.

Quote:
"(God is) the one who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion." Qur'an,21:33


So no mention that the earth moves around the sun? This seems like a pretty significant detail to leave out. Otherwise, it looks to me like the author thought what a lot of other people thought -- that the sun and moon (and the planets, and the stars) move around the earth.

Quote:
It is not until man landed on the moon and observed the earth spinning on its axis, that the dark half of the globe appeared to wind itself around the light and the light half appeared to wind itself around the dark.


An effect of a spherical earth. The Greeks (and many others, I am sure) were aware that the earth was spherical. They had even determined its circumference with a remarkable degree of accuracy -- centuries before the Quran was written. Certainly we didn't have to go to the moon to know that half the earth was dark and half the earth was light. This is not even inconsistent with a cosmology in which the earth is the center of the universe and the sun is in orbit around it.

Quote:
"I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it." Qur'an,51:47

The expansion of the universe was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is supported by the calculations of astrophysics. The regular movement of the galactic light towards the red section of the spectrum is explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus, the size of the universe appears to be progressively increasing.


You've got to admit that this is a stretch, no pun intended.
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 05:31 pm
Quote:
What, the guy never talked to other people -- doctors, midwives, people who made observations about the world? By the way, I'm looking for any mention of the ovum here, and it would appear that all of the credit is going to sperm


com on man, what are you saying, even doctors and midwives could not discover the 42 days old of fetus. It is not easy to do so from observation. I believe if women had an abortion at the first 7 weeks she would not be able to feel it (she would think it is a regular blood or so due to the size of fetus) and you are talking that we had doctors? no doctors then.
He did not use maybe , or perhaps , he used 42 days.
We have the full Human Embryonic Development in quran .

Quote:

So no mention that the earth moves around the sun? This seems like a pretty significant detail to leave out. Otherwise, it looks to me like the author thought what a lot of other people thought -- that the sun and moon (and the planets, and the stars) move around the earth.

What dose orbit means? It travels in a circle. So Quran must mention that earth moves around the sun. Maybe god missed that by purpose for people like you. If really think Muhammad discovered that sun moves and all moves in orbits etc…why he didn't mention that the earth moves around the sun? much easier I guess, why he missed that?

Quran is not just a science book, otherwise we could end with scientific religion only.

Quote:

You've got to admit that this is a stretch, no pun intended.

no you have to admit it was intended….
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 05:33 pm
9-
Quote:

creation of human at womb

The Noble Quran on Human Embryonic Development:
In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... [1] (Quran, 23:12-14)

Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.
In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others. [3]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img1.jpg


Figure 1: Drawings illustrating the similarities in appearance between a leech and a human embryo at the alaqah stage. (Leech drawing from Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 37, modified from Integrated Principles of Zoology, Hickman and others. Embryo drawing from The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 73.)

The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing.” This is what we can see in figures 2 and 3, the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img2-big.jpg

Figure 2: We can see in this diagram the suspension of an embryo during the alaqah stage in the womb (uterus) of the mother. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 66.)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img3.jpg

Figure 3: In this photomicrograph, we can see the suspension of an embryo (marked B) during the alaqah stage (about 15 days old) in the womb of the mother. The actual size of the embryo is about 0.6 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore, 3rd ed., p. 66, from Histology, Leeson and Leeson.)
The third meaning of the word alaqah is “blood clot.” We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage (see figure 4). Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week. Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.


http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img4-big.jpg

Figure 4: Diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage. The external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot, due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo. (The Developing Human, Moore, 5th ed., p. 65.)

So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.
The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.” If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.” (see figures 5 and 6).

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img5.jpg

Figure 5: Photograph of an embryo at the mudghah stage (28 days old). The embryo at this stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance, because the somites at the back of the embryo somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance. The actual size of the embryo is 4 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 82, from Professor Hideo Nishimura, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan.)



http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img6-big.jpg

Figure 6: When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mudghah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.
A) Drawing of an embryo at the mudghah stage. We can see here the somites at the back of the embryo that look like teeth marks. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 79.)
B) Photograph of a piece of gum that has been chewed

How could Muhammad have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.

Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.”

Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty in accepting this.”

During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.”

There are video links for these comments if you don't believe me.

Is this enough for you or still suspicious?
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2004 08:53 pm
hey guys where are you?

Gave Up ? Very Happy
it is the time for all to reliaze that Quran is the words of GOD.


can someone answers me the craetion of universe?
0 Replies
 
glad to be muslim
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Aug, 2004 08:55 pm
Quote:


again/ with details the creation of universe

The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’
Quote:

Nebula- a cloud of dust and gas in space, from which new stars are created
The first origin for material is the universe's creation itself: Soon after its birth, atoms were created in the universe, and it is from these that the first dust and gas clouds formed. This means that the gas and dust that make up this type of nebula were not created in a star, but are the original matter from the beginnings of the universe.
Read more about nebula here:
http://home.cwru.edu/~sjr16/stars_birth.html


Quote:

Originally nebula (Latin for "mist"; plur. nebulae) was a catch-all name for any extended astronomical object, including galaxies beyond the Milky Way. This occasionally survives, but the stricter modern term is used for interstellar clouds of dust and gas, which are categorized by how they are illuminated.


Interstellar cloud is the generic name given to accumulations of gas and dust in our galaxy. Depending on the density, size and temperature of a given cloud, the hydrogen in it can be neutral (HI clouds), ionized, (HII regions), or molecular (molecular clouds). When insufficiently dense to be called a cloud, it may be referred to as interstellar dust or simply dust. Dust in an astronomical context typically has a different composition from the household meaning of dust.

Some types of nebula have special names, such as dark nebulae, emission nebulae, planetary nebulae, reflection nebulae, and solar nebulae.

In cosmogony, the solar nebula is a gaseous cloud (or accretion disc), from which, solar systems are formed. This nebular hypothesis was first proposed, in 1755, by Kant; who argued that nebulae slowly rotate, gradually condensing (due to gravity) and flattening; eventually forming stars and planets. A similar model was proposed, in 1796, by Laplace

http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/1/1f/300px-Interstellar.cloud.arp.750pix.jpg

Over 200 newly formed stars are scattered within a cavern-like, gaseous, interstellar cloud (NGC 604). The stars irradiate the gas with energetic ultraviolet light stripping electrons from atoms and exciting them - producing a characteristic nebular glow.

Source :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_cloud


God has said in the Quran:

Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11)
Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... (Quran, 21:30)
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2004 07:04 am
Quote:
com on man, what are you saying, even doctors and midwives could not discover the 42 days old of fetus. It is not easy to do so from observation.


Why not? If a woman is having infrequent intercourse, she can't tell you when her last sexual encounter occurred?

And claiming that there were no doctors? Every human society has doctors of one kind or another, and so-called "western" medicine has some intellectual roots at least as far back as Hippocrates and his colleagues in ancient Greece.

Quote:
smoke' (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition).


You play with definitions to try and make them closer to what you want to say. Smoke is not gaseous, it is particulate, and it is the result of, not the engenderer of, combustion. This is a semantic quibble, but you distort the definition of the word to make it nearer to what you believe. Anyway, plenty of cosmologies/religious traditions have the universe arising from chaos (or "smoke," if you will). Maybe this comes from looking at the haze of the Milky Way (our galaxy) on a clear, moonless night.
0 Replies
 
 

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