Evolution or Creation

This is an old waffle iron, with a receipt on it:

http://www.berge-im-netz.de/berge/galerie/gal04/gal0407/heud14.jpg

(I've two of irons myself ... but no coal oven to use them.)

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Foxfyre wrote:

How ironic it is that so many are willing to admit how many things science can't explain, and yet are so sure there is no God.

Well, there are some of us who are willing to "admit"(?) there are things science cannot explain...but who are not asserting "there is no God."

What we are saying is that ANY assertions about the existence of a God or gods...whether the assertion is "There is a God" or "There are no gods"...

...ARE GUESSES based on damn near nothing at all.

The evidence...little as there is...is so equivocal, so inconclusive...that it makes no sense to assert either position.

But you thesists insist there is a God...and a portion of atheists insist there are no gods...despite the absurdity of doing so.

Both sides ought to deal with the truth...which from all indications seems to be: The question of whether or not there is a God (or are gods)...simply cannot be answered from the evidence currently available.

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Im just about ready to start. Im gonna try the Waffles from Leige recipe. i assume vanillated sugra means I have to take the bag outside and shoot it no?
Hey Walter, that recipe seems strait forward but its gotta be a bitch to file.

Frank-want a waffle?

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Heh heh...vanilla sugar, of course. However, a little vanilla extract and regular sugar would do just fine.

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Give the guy a break, apparently English is not his first language. Smile

Mind you, shooting up bags of sugar does sound like fun...

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farmerman wrote:

Im just about ready to start. Im gonna try the Waffles from Leige recipe. i assume vanillated sugra means I have to take the bag outside and shoot it no?
Hey Walter, that recipe seems strait forward but its gotta be a bitch to file.

Frank-want a waffle?

I made up some pancakes for Nancy and myself this morning...nice fat ones with fresh fried bacon crisps in 'em.

Didn't do anything good for my cholesterol, I'm sure. But they were deeeelicious.

Was your question, "Do you want a waffle?" or "Do ya wanna waffle."

If the former...read my previous comments; if the latter...

...nah, I'll leave the waffling to George Bush who does so much of it. Or to the people who post on A2K who think Kerry does more than Bush.

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Sorry Frank, we ate em all, every last one. Deelicious

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Ufos, extraterrestral abductions, ghosts, ball lightening, spontaneous human combustion are some things science rejects, because main stream scientists believe there is too little hard evidence, yet science seems to seriously entertain other ideas with even less hard evidence such as the big bang 13.7 billion years ago, some of quantum theory, superstrings, and the event horizon of a black hole. I remain open minded about almost everything.
I agree it is helpful to under stand the details of both sides of a debate, however I enjoy the process of debate but the desire to win should not cause us to distort the truth or make false inferences. Neil

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It's not so much for the evidence as it is testable. The big bang theory is probably testable on a smaller scale, but on that, I wouldn't know. I challenge anyone to make up a scientific experiment (with explained mechanisms, a proper hypothesis and prediction with data that is recordable) that will provide evidence to support or disprove the existence of god, extraterrestrials, ghosts, ball lightening, or others above mentioned. If you can't, then it's not scientific, and is therefore rejected.

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Distortion of the truth happens frequently in politics from people who should know better, but will continue to support their party irregardless. Distortion of the truth in science is another matter entirely, because hypothesis about some things can never be proved, but usually extrapolated from knowns. Can't prove the existence of god, but why does it matter? For those that wish to believe in the existence of god fulfills their life in some manner. Those of us that believe there is no god is our own choice based on our perceptions of what life is all about. A man and a woman have sex, and if sperm meets egg, say 'hello.' We might not survive birth, or live to be over 100 years old. No god involved, just nature.

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most of the theories in the areas of science that Im familiar with, are proposed to answer a particular piece of data.
eG Continental drift was posed as a theory after a few facts were discovered
1 the seismic and gravity returns from the oceanic crust indicated that marine crustal units are thinner than those on the continent

2 The oldest sediments found along continental margins were jurassic aged

3 magnetic "stripes" could be seen in WWII mag reports while hunting for german and Japanese subs.These stripes seemed to parralel the mid oceanic ridges and also the continental margins

4The continental margins on both sides of the Atlantic seemed to"fit' perfectly together, like a great zipper had opened up

Until then, all the geologists thought that the only direction the sediment'blocks" could move was up and down. the entire fields of structural geology andsediment transport and stratigraphy based their discussions on eugeosynclines and miogeosynclines ( dont worry, its a dead area now)
in the 1960s and 1970s, a huuge revolution based on a screwball 'theory of plate tectonics' grew out of a earlier theory posed by a whacky meteorologists in a presentation that he made in the 1920s. everyone just laughed and laughed at Wegener when he showed up in a room.

"HEY ALfRED--- tell these guys about your crazy theory'

Today, only a few traditionalists and Creationists dont accept plate tectonics. so much data has been accumulated in 30 years that we now can , by using plate tectonic theory, we can accurately locate many oil fields that still remain hidden from us, not to mention other earth products.

Similarly, the big bang was a theory that grew out of a series of investigations that tried to define where all the background radio signals were coming from whenever we tried to send messages by satellite . There was this hiiss and background radio noise that seemed to be everywhere in the sky. bell Labs, merely trying to clean up telephone calls, was doing the initial radio telescope work when i was a kid of about 10 years old. i had an uncle who worked over in Bell Labs- NJ where the big bang was born

aS far as god, there was no problem to be solved other than a philosophical one. sCience had interjected itself into matters of faith and morals because, little by little, some smartass scientist was trying to solve some smallish, and relatively inconsequential, problem to make his experiment work or to make a gizmo better. Little did the scientist realize that his findings would rattle the doxy of the day.

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I had just finished eating my waffle, got on the computer and the first thing I see is a waffle iron and discussion about making waffles, in a thread on creation vs evolution! Well, that is unquestionable proof since the odds of reading a digression about waffles immediately after making a waffle for the first time in ages must be astronomical.

After such an experience, I now am a True Believer. Sorry Frank, but there can be no further doubt in my mind and I feel I must resign from ranks of agnostics until I can regain my uncertainy. :wink:

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Foxfyre wrote:

The smartest psychiatrist, psychologist, sociologist has been unable to adequately define the essence of or the cause of love, compassion, creativity or other innate gifts unrelated to genetics, or independent ideas unrelated to any physical experience or stimulus.

Love - oxytocin and other hormones
Compassion - cultural
Creativity and other "innate" gifts - brain wiring, modified by training
"Independent" ideas - synthesis of existing ideas and experiences, inspiration from nature

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The existence of God is a reality for those who have experienced God and science cannot explain it.

Temporal lobe epilepsy and Michael Persinger's magnetic helmet can induce religious experiences.

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Science is useful to define and explain the physical world--that which can be detected by the physical senses. There is much much more to existence than that, however.

Yes, and science is also useful for explaining things that cannot be detected by our physical senses, such as radio waves, atoms, and DNA. How do you know that there is anything that science will not eventually be able to explain?

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Science can break down and identify every basic element of a flower seed in the most minute detail, but no scientist can make a flower seed that works.

Not yet. But we CAN create a virus that works and we can modify seeds by inserting DNA from other species. It is only a matter of time until we can create a working seed in the lab.

Many people make the mistake of thinking that since they do not understand something, no one else does either. If you would keep up with current research you would find that scientists know a whole lot more than you think they do. You can get free email updates from many of the major journals.

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losing your uncertainty compass is serious stuff Terry. As the author of the waffle digression, i must apologize for your apotheosis.

Today we had eggs n ham n taters

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Terry wrote:

I had just finished eating my waffle, got on the computer and the first thing I see is a waffle iron and discussion about making waffles, in a thread on creation vs evolution! Well, that is unquestionable proof since the odds of reading a digression about waffles immediately after making a waffle for the first time in ages must be astronomical.

After such an experience, I now am a True Believer. Sorry Frank, but there can be no further doubt in my mind and I feel I must resign from ranks of agnostics until I can regain my uncertainy. :wink:

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

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Terry thinks she had an experience that was mathematically beyond the scope of reality. Well, I had one that boggles the mind. This happened when I was a traveling auditor for Florsheim Shoe Company on one of my trips to Los Angeles. I called an old childhood friend from Sacramento, and we spent a few hours together talking about old times and visiting his home in Burbank. When dinner time approached, he suggested we go to Little Tokyo in Los Angles for dinner. About ten minutes after we arrived, my older brother who lives in Sacramento walked into the restaurant. That was not a spiritual experience for me. I just said, wow, what's the mathematical probability of that? btw, I lived in Fremont, California, when that happened.

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farmerman wrote:

when i was a kid of about 10 years old. i had an uncle who worked over in Bell Labs- NJ where the big bang was born

Interesting. My father worked for Bell Labs in NJ (Murray Hill) at that time, and my best friend was Philip Wilson. Phillip's father was Robert Wilson, and Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias were the two who won the nobel prize for discovering the microwave background radiation remaining from the Big Bang. Back in the 60's, we used to have picnics on the hill right under the telescopes (the Horn) used by Bob and Arno. We also found a lot of trilobite fossils in Murray Hill, and we found fossilized sharks teeth in Ramanessin Brook in Holmdel.

I wonder if I knew (or heard of) your Uncle?

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rosborne. my uncle was an electronics engineer who wrked on CRTs and optic cables and such. he was at murray hill, Lodi, and Reading.
Boy, being close to a really big event in science is really neat. i saw on tv how penzias and wilson spent so much brute work time trying to decipher where the noises came from. They even cleaned all the pigeon **** from the horn. Most people dont realize that most science is the result of tedious , dull work, not a bunch of ahas and elegant equations.

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farmerman wrote:

rosborne. my uncle was an electronics engineer who wrked on CRTs and optic cables and such. he was at murray hill, Lodi, and Reading.
Boy, being close to a really big event in science is really neat. i saw on tv how penzias and wilson spent so much brute work time trying to decipher where the noises came from. They even cleaned all the pigeon **** from the horn. Most people dont realize that most science is the result of tedious , dull work, not a bunch of ahas and elegant equations.

It's possible that my father knows your Uncle (my father is an EE as well, but Bell Labs was crawling with EE's at that time). I was too young at the time to know most of the people there except for my friends parents, as is the case with the Wilsons.

I've seen several PBS shows over the years (most recently on the Origins Nova show) with interviews of Bob and Arno, but I remember the Pigeon crap stories from the source Smile

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rosborne979 wrote:

farmerman wrote:
when i was a kid of about 10 years old. i had an uncle who worked over in Bell Labs- NJ where the big bang was born

Interesting. My father worked for Bell Labs in NJ (Murray Hill) at that time, and my best friend was Philip Wilson. Phillip's father was Robert Wilson, and Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias were the two who won the nobel prize for discovering the microwave background radiation remaining from the Big Bang. Back in the 60's, we used to have picnics on the hill right under the telescopes (the Horn) used by Bob and Arno. We also found a lot of trilobite fossils in Murray Hill, and we found fossilized sharks teeth in Ramanessin Brook in Holmdel.

I wonder if I knew (or heard of) your Uncle?

Cool story, did you father help them clean all the bird **** in the horn? Smile

I remember they at one time thought the cause of the backround radiation was the pigeon droppings in the horn.

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