1
   

US Intervention in these countries. What did we do?

 
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 11:23 am
Suze, I respect your dissertation but disagree with your premise. Imagine Argentina as your teen-age son who you slip money to every time they need something. Some irresponsible habits will take root, no? The IMF acted like a rich uncle and Argentina took advantage. As Bill says, this doesn't constitute an active attempt at overthrowing a democracy. Your other examples sadly, are a lot closer to colonialist meddling.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 12:10 pm
I don't blame only the US for meddling in Argentina, and yes, the Argentine government certainly was at fault for taking the country to the point that they did originally. But the IMF imposes changes that, in the guise of helping many countries, has made those nations poorer while making investors richer. The United States should reevaluate it's participation in the IMF. As far as its political and economic goals are concerned, the IMF is inimical to the U.S. national interest. It prevents the market mechanism from operating and encourages irresponsible behavior on the part of recipient governments and investors. It exacerbates the degree of economic adjustments and compromises both the free market and the reputation of the United States in the world. Instead of associating the United States with its natural allies, the masses of hardworking people, it associates America with their oppressors.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 12:53 pm
" (1) control of inflation, (2) privatization of state-owned enterprises, (3) opening up the country to foreign imports and investments, (4) no tariffs on imports, (5) freedom for corporations to expatriate profits, (6) suppression of labor."

No, Bill, I still maintain that most of those are wrong for the nations 'helped'. Especially 4, 5 & 6.
In particular, 6. That's suppressing democracy.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 01:16 pm
Suzy, yer killing me. Laughing We agree that 6 looks pretty lousy. :wink: Laughing
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 02:38 pm
How am I killing you, Bill? I don't see any humor in this business, myself Confused and usually I have a great sense of humor. Really Smile

North American and European corporations have acquired control of more than three-fourths of the known mineral resources of Asia, Africa, and Latin America. I think that's sad. I don't want corporations running the world and "owning" all it's resources.

"Warfare does not only occur on battlefields. There's another kind that is waged in corporate boardrooms and in the suites of the IMF and World Bank. Its lethality and casualties are different from conventional warfare. Workers lose their jobs or are forced to work for lower wages. Public services are rolled back and cut. Hard won benefits are eliminated. From Argentina to Iraq a handful of very rich warriors stand atop most of the world's population. Bombed out economies are auctioned off to the highest and best-connected bidder. Argentina was once the poster boy of neoliberalisms's new economic order. Today it is devastated. And invaded and occupied Iraq? The Conservative Economist calls it "a capitalist dream." - Naomi Klein

"and don't go thinking we never (or very recently didn't) go after truly bad guys." Of course not.

"6) This one I'd like a definition for. " It's just as it sounds, and I think it is described above. The IMF and World Bank dictate what is allowable, and labor unions are generally not. They're lending money and dictaing the new rules for debtor nations to live under. So much for sovereignty. If you don't have some kind of control, or say, over the basic economic resources (including workers), sovereignty ends up being reduced to an anthem, a flag.

We should realize that we gain nothing by supporting a global interventionism that plunders the world's resources and accumulates profits for the few, while impoverishing the many at home and abroad.
That's all it comes down to. Mad
Oh, and my post (807819) comes from an article in Investors\' Business Daily of January 22, 2003.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 02:50 pm
You'll know not to mess with suzy Mr Bill!
But seriously, the chronology is sad. I wonder if our meddling will ever ever bring righteous reforms in the rest of the world.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 03:54 pm
Okay Suzy. You have to understand that as much as I like you, your politics are so nearly opposite mine that it almost seems a caricature of opposition at times. And caricatures, to me, are funny. I have zero doubt you'll continue to disagree with me completely, so this is probably a futile exercise, but I'll give it a quick shot.

(1) control of inflation, This is practically an absolute necessity before credit can be issued at all. It is not oppressive in any way. It simply restricts the government's ability to cheat, which in turn makes doing business with them more palatable. Without this control, what's to stop the money printing presses from running amuck to pay debts with cash that isn't worth the paper it's printed on? To list this as an unfair restriction is absurd.

(2) privatization of state-owned enterprises, As provided in my train example state-owned enterprise is a recipe for disaster. Look at the Soviet Union... Compare the two Koreas. I mean really Suzy; the biggest reason the cold war ended was fact that state-owned enterprise doesn't work. The writing is so clearly on the wall that that opinion is very nearly fact.

(3) opening up the country to foreign imports and investments, This is the way you attract money into your country. If you want to keep up with the global economy, and your country isn't a goldmine, you have to join it. Take a peek at the The World Factbook and compare the "open" countries GDPs to the "closed" countries. Look at Costa Rica, the oldest democracy on the continent compared to more restrictive neighbors. The truth should be startlingly apparent. (The truth being that this is a very reasonable condition before investment)

(4) no tariffs on imports, Again, see 3... and: this one can get a little touchy, but is not evil by itself. If no one charged tariffs on imports and no one subsidized their goods, it would be completely fair. Deals like NAFTA and CAFTA are helping to level the playing field and the WTO seems to be making progress. InfraBlue started a fascinating thread on the subject here. After reading that you should be able to understand that "no tariffs on imports" is actually a very good thing, but needs to be policed better.

(5) freedom for corporations to expatriate profits, I can't get any clearer on this one. I will put not one investment dollar someplace that I can't get it back, or realize a profit. Would you?

(6) suppression of labor.
Public sector enterprises were sold to MNCs and private owners and almost all social gains were eliminated.
This is not something the US or the IMF did. Think it through.

Another place you seem to run into trouble is differentiating between the US and the IMF. Some say the IMF runs the states… and not just ours… all of them. Shocked
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 04:45 pm
Aw, jeez, Bill, I like you too! And I'm coming to your town soon; better watch out!
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Okay Suzy. You have to understand that as much as I like you, your politics are so nearly opposite mine that it almost seems a caricature of opposition at times. And caricatures, to me, are funny. I have zero doubt you'll continue to disagree with me completely, so this is probably a futile exercise, but I'll give it a quick shot.
Okay, Bill, I'll respond where I can, sadly using very few of my own words! I'm just not that bright Wink
(1) control of inflation, This is practically an absolute necessity before credit can be issued at all. It is not oppressive in any way. It simply restricts the government's ability to cheat, which in turn makes doing business with them more palatable. Without this control, what's to stop the money printing presses from running amuck to pay debts with cash that isn't worth the paper it's printed on? To list this as an unfair restriction is absurd.
That's okay by me, as long as it is not made impossible to do!
(2) privatization of state-owned enterprises, As provided in my train example state-owned enterprise is a recipe for disaster. Look at the Soviet Union... Compare the two Koreas. I mean really Suzy; the biggest reason the cold war ended was fact that state-owned enterprise doesn't work. The writing is so clearly on the wall that that opinion is very nearly fact.
the World Bank acts as if the only alternative is privatization, not improving public services with outside financial and technical aid and with greater citizen accountability. In any case, privatized utilities need strong public regulation, which is difficult and expensive to do well. Paradoxically, weak and corrupt governments, whose public services could most benefit from reform, are least able to regulate privatized systems. Often they sell public goods on the cheap to cronies and patrons, making privatization really "briberization," says former World Bank chief economist Joseph Stiglitz.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=640_0_1_0_C


(3) opening up the country to foreign imports and investments, This is the way you attract money into your country. If you want to keep up with the global economy, and your country isn't a goldmine, you have to join it. Take a peek at the The World Factbook and compare the "open" countries GDPs to the "closed" countries. Look at Costa Rica, the oldest democracy on the continent compared to more restrictive neighbors. The truth should be startlingly apparent. (The truth being that this is a very reasonable condition before investment)
What may have worked for Costa Rica (and I admit I haven't checked it out) doesn't necessarily work for all.
Structural adjustment has exacerbated poverty in most countries where it has been applied, contributing to the suffering of millions and causing widespread environmental degradation. And since the 1980s, adjustment has helped create a net outflow of wealth from the developing world, which has paid out five times as much capital to the industrialized countries of the North as it has received.
The wealthy Northern countries which control the World Bank and IMF dictate the agendas of these institutions, and their interests are best served by defending the status quo.
Furthermore, the Bank's staff is currently dominated by economists who have spent their careers defending the validity of neoclassical economics, the foundation of the World Bank model of development. This orthodox view holds sacred the efficiency of free markets and private producers and the benefits of international trade and competition. Given the lack of accountability to outside parties, there is little incentive for the Bank and IMF to alter the design of structural adjustment, even when faced with mounting evidence attesting to the failure of these programs.
Since the 1980s the debt situation has steadily worsened, so that now the total debt of the developing world equals about one-half their combined GNP and nearly twice their total annual export earnings. Because of this crushing debt-service burden, foreign governments have virtually no bargaining power when negotiating a structural adjustment program and must accept any conditions imposed by the World Bank and the IMF. And SAPs themselves, by orienting economies toward generating foreign exchange, are designed to ensure that debtor countries continue to make debt payments, further enriching Northern creditors at the expense of domestic programs in the South. http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/wbimf/faq.html

(4) no tariffs on imports, Again, see 3... and: this one can get a little touchy, but is not evil by itself. If no one charged tariffs on imports and no one subsidized their goods, it would be completely fair. Deals like NAFTA and CAFTA are helping to level the playing field and the WTO seems to be making progress. InfraBlue started a fascinating thread on the subject here. After reading that you should be able to understand that "no tariffs on imports" is actually a very good thing, but needs to be policed better.

Don't know enough about this, and too lazy to look it up right now!

(5) freedom for corporations to expatriate profits, I can't get any clearer on this one. I will put not one investment dollar someplace that I can't get it back, or realize a profit. Would you?
No, but I think what is implied is that these corporations are making money off the very resources the state is no longer allowed any control over, yet which belong to the state, and that's a bit touchier.
(6) suppression of labor.
Public sector enterprises were sold to MNCs and private owners and almost all social gains were eliminated.
This is not something the US or the IMF did. Think it through.

to advance corporate interests at the expense of labor.http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2001/01september/sep01corp1.html

Another place you seem to run into trouble is differentiating between the US and the IMF. Some say the IMF runs the states… and not just ours… all of them. Shocked

I can differentiate between the IMF and the US government, but often, one hand rubs the other. US banks and investors benefit richly from the IMF and World Bank loans. And it's okay to benefit! It's just not okay, to me, to do it this way.Voting power at the World Bank and IMF is determined by the level of a nation's financial contribution. Therefore, the United States has roughly 17% of the vote, with the seven largest industrialized countries (G-7) holding a total of 45%. Because of the scale of its contribution, the United States has always had a dominant voice and has at all times exercised an effective veto. At the same time, developing countries have relatively little power within the institution, which, through the programs and policies they decide to finance, have tremendous impact throughout local economies and societies. Furthermore, the President of the World Bank is by tradition an American, and the IMF President is a European. Development projects undertaken with World Bank financing typically include money to pay for materials and consulting services provided by Northern countries. U.S. Treasury Department officials calculate that for every U.S.$1 the United States contributes to international development banks, U.S. exporters win more than U.S.$2 in bank-financed procurement contracts.
Why is this bad?
Given this self-interest, the Bank tends to finance bigger, more expensive
projects--which almost always require the materials and technical expertise of Northern contractors--and ignores smaller-scale, locally appropriate alternatives. The mission of the World Bank to alleviate poverty, not provide business for U.S. contractors.
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/wbimf/faq.html



Argentina to discuss reform shortfalls with IMF
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5735323

A new boss for the IMF: The golden Rato. Economist Jun 2, 2004
http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2722772

IMF and World Bank: Is reform underway?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3914961.stm
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 06:47 pm
The problem I have with your positions, Suzy, is you seem to read only sources that range from slightly left to radically left and beyond... and seem to have a pre-disposition to believe the worst. I've been giving this some thought and figured out it's not your fault. It is an admirable trait that was no doubt instilled in you by your parents or the church or some such source that taught you selfishness was evil and that the causes that are just are those that help your fellow man... the downtrodden, the loser, the oppressed. This is noble... really, it is, but it isn't fair and it isn't true.

Humans are competitive creatures. They thrive in systems that are closer to Free Market Capitalism because their selfish competitive natures drive them to succeed. Now in Systems that are closer to communism, where all needs are met regardless of contribution, their selfish competitive nature drives them to compete to contribute the least. You'll notice in both systems, people remain the same... selfish competitive creatures Idea . Our forefathers recognized this simple truth about human nature and created an environment where it could thrive. Aside from being a Goldmine of resources, the biggest contributing factor to our success in the US is our comparatively unfettered rights to selfishly act on our own behalf. Believe it or not Suzy, there is nothing inherently evil about our selfish competitive nature. Virtually every societal group that ever taught otherwise, whether church or state did so in an attempt to gather the wealth and power unto themselves. Their attempts at doing so are no more virtuous than our own. By instilling these beliefs in others it elevates their position, which of course feeds their own selfish competitive nature. Until and unless you realize this simple truth; you will likely continue to believe the accuracy of stories that present powerful winners as evil (the U.S., G7 etc.) and weaker, losers as victims. You will never be satisfied with the U.S. until such time as it ceases to be a powerful winner and becomes a weak loser. No worries; corruption will take us there eventually. Sad

The other thing that separates our viewpoints is you don't seem to realize that your sources don't separate the evils caused by corruption when criticizing a system. Corruption exists in all systems so it is crucial that you separate the damage it causes before accessing the fairness of a system. Most of the complaints in the quoted sources you used for rebuttal are guilty of this. I bet if you re-read your own answers while looking for this misplaced blame, you will see what I mean. Idea

Ps- Tell me Suzy, what would it take to get you to read 500 pages of a boring book? Ayn Rand articulated many of these ideas better than I ever could in "Atlas Shrugged". If you dedicate yourself to reading the first 500 pages, no force on earth will keep you from reading the other half. I couldn't recommend it more strongly. (Warning, warning, every woman that ever read it per my recommendation suffered from barely containable "OCCOM BILL-Adoration". Don't ask me why... I didn't write it... but be warned. :wink: )
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 07:38 pm
"You will never be satisfied with the U.S. until such time as it ceases to be a powerful winner and becomes a weak loser."
No, no Bill, you couldn't be more wrong! I want my country to be the fair and wonderful one that we all grew up believing it was. We can accomplish this and still be greedy and competitive, as long as we're fair, which we're kinda not right now. Maybe we never have been, but it is an ideal that can be achieved much of the time if the government put it's mind to it.

Yes, many of my sources are left of center, but do you know why that is? It's because I realized several years back that there is another side to many of our stories, but we don't hear them unless we look for them outside the mainstream. Sadly, leftist reporters, being placed in the position of having to report what is not reported, find themselves being stuck with mostly unsavory news. The news the leaders would rather we don't hear. If you want to hear about the screw-ups of those countries we and/or the IMF have helped, well that's readily available and upbeat information, isn't it? We prefer to think of ourselves as the benevolent daddy whose leadership nobody can do without.
You seem okay with that because you don't like the other side of the story?

I did find some sites which said basically the same things I reprinted here, with the exception being that they blamed the nations even more than the "saviors". I chose not to post those, as they don't take away from my theory (or belief) that something better needs to be done to help other nations, whether or not the US government or corporations can reap a huge profit by doing so. What's the incentive? Living up to what we've always said we are should be enough. And of course I know that sometimes other nations can screw themselves just fine even without US assistance!
It is okay to be rewarded for providing this assistance, but not at the expense it has cost those nations in the current mode of operation.

Not everybody loves Ayn Rand, you know! I read one of her books, but I don't recall the title. (I'll look it up, but it sure wasn't 500 pages!) It was not Atlas Shrugged, which has been sitting on my shelf for years. I'll get around to it one day. Smile
A couple books that helped shape my beliefs are Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, and Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun, among others. I also still have and often consult my college history texts, a two volume set by Jim McClellean which present historical events from many sides, including either the words of people who participated, using old letters, newspaper accounts, documents, etc, or with commentary from contemporary observers.

I am actually more interested in being honest than in being right (most of the time Wink ) and have dispensed a few mea culpas when necessary (albeit sometimes grudgingly)!

So my honest opinion is that I am disappointed that we are not the country I thought we were, and even more upset that sometimes we really suck. If pointing that out is upsetting to some, well, the truth hurts sometimes. But truth is more important than comfort, or patriotism, in my opinion.

The bumper stickers make me laugh. I'm an American, but I'm not proud to be one, I'm just lucky! We all are.

"barely containable "OCCOM BILL-Adoration" Laughing Laughing
Tough to be you, huh? Cool
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jul, 2004 07:45 pm
Found it! It was Anthem.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2004 12:13 am
the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
"You will never be satisfied with the U.S. until such time as it ceases to be a powerful winner and becomes a weak loser."
No, no Bill, you couldn't be more wrong! I want my country to be the fair and wonderful one that we all grew up believing it was. We can accomplish this and still be greedy and competitive, as long as we're fair, which we're kinda not right now. Maybe we never have been, but it is an ideal that can be achieved much of the time if the government put it's mind to it.


Suzy, you dizzy dame. I know you wish the U.S. would do better and you are not alone. We certainly define better differently, but I'm no less aware of our past mistakes than you. I wasn't suggesting you harbored some form of hatred for the U.S… I was suggesting your ideology places the bar impossibly high. The day won't come that we take care of everyone. Hard as we may try to exchange value for value to the mutual benefit of us both, some transactions will never be equal.

the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
Not everybody loves Ayn Rand, you know! I read one of her books, but I don't recall the title. (I'll look it up, but it sure wasn't 500 pages!) It was not Atlas Shrugged, which has been sitting on my shelf for years. I'll get around to it one day. Smile

For sure everybody doesn't love Ayn Rand… some hate her, some fear her and some are so threatened by her that they go out of their way to discredit her at every turn. Invariably, the last category comes from the super-lefty crowd… where I currently place you. Razz I've long suspected that the vast majority of those who don't like her never really read the entire book. I've given away dozens of copies and 1 in 5 read it. 9 in 10 love if they really do (of course I choose who I give it to, so my numbers are slanted). Oh, and 500 pages is the hard part. The next 575 pages fly by! :wink: I wish she had never written Anthem, because that one truly is stupid, is her shortest and I suspect results in turning people away from her longer works… that are 10 to 1,000 times better. You said you have Atlas on your shelf, right? Put it on top of your to read list and read it. Trust me, you won't regret it, even if it only helps you understand the other side.


the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
A couple books that helped shape my beliefs are Upton Sinclair's The Jungle
Shocked … I used that one because there is no anti-shock emoticon. :wink: Listen to me now: The romantic ideals of communism depicted by Sinclair in that book have proven unattainable in practice. His influence in your beliefs is very apparent and I am now convinced Atlas will cure you (I just mean center you).


the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
and Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun,
That makes sense too. You're tougher than me. I don't think I could read that… too much suffering. A first edition's worth about gazillion dollars by the way if you have one.

the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
I am actually more interested in being honest than in being right (most of the time Wink ) and have dispensed a few mea culpas when necessary
Same here! Only I do so without hesitation as soon as I figure out I'm wrong. Of course, I'm either seldom wrong or I seldom figure it out. :wink:

the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
So my honest opinion is that I am disappointed that we are not the country I thought we were, and even more upset that sometimes we really suck. If pointing that out is upsetting to some, well, the truth hurts sometimes. But truth is more important than comfort, or patriotism, in my opinion.
I've known those were your honest feelings for a while now. You didn't really think I stopped beating on you on that other thread because you said you were beautiful, did you? I do wish you wouldn't assume all those who find your criticisms offensive are exhibiting blind, hyper partisan patriotic loyalty. Personally, I just think you're way to quick to go way over the top sometimes… like accepting that Bush intentionally watched the Twin Towers get hit… That one's in the foil-hat category. Rolling Eyes You must realize that both sides are dominated by people who will say anything to discredit the other side. Bush isn't worse anyone else. The unprecidented quantity of information these days just makes it seem that way.

the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
The bumper stickers make me laugh. I'm an American, but I'm not proud to be one, I'm just lucky! We all are.
Yes we are lucky but that's no reason not to be proud of the brave men and women who do the thankless dirty work. I'm ashamed when I hear references to Vietnam Veterans having been spit on and called nasty names and want from now on for our soldiers to come home to bumper stickers, flags and yellow ribbons everywhere they look. They deserve it, and that's why I do it. It has nothing to do me or misplaced patriotism or anything to laugh at. It's about the troops. Idea

the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
"barely containable "OCCOM BILL-Adoration" Laughing Laughing
Tough to be you, huh? Cool
Goodness yes. Cool Gus wasn't me for 24 hours before he said he wanted to die. Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2004 06:16 am
[quote="OCCOM BILL Suzy, you dizzy dame. I know you wish the U.S. would do better and you are not alone. We certainly define better differently, but I'm no less aware of our past mistakes than you. I wasn't suggesting you harbored some form of hatred for the U.S… I was suggesting your ideology places the bar impossibly high. The day won't come that we take care of everyone. Hard as we may try to exchange value for value to the mutual benefit of us both, some transactions will never be equal.
See, this is where you are wrong, Bill. Doing better does not mean doing perfectly. There are shades here and everything isn't black and white. Just because I say we can and should do better, you interpret that as my believing that we can take care of everyone. Shades, Bill, shades! Even if it were possible to take care of everyone, I don't think that would be advisable, and how you glean anything of the sort from my comments, I don't know. In my opinion, it shows that you are unable or unwilling to give something over to real thought, but rather just brush it aside, convinced in your own pert belief system! By doing so, you are limiting your ability to develop a fresh perspective. You are too young to have everything already cut and dried and set in concrete.[/quote] For sure everybody doesn't love Ayn Rand… some hate her, some fear her and some are so threatened by her that they go out of their way to discredit her at every turn. Invariably, the last category comes from the super-lefty crowd… where I currently place you. Razz I've long suspected that the vast majority of those who don't like her never really read the entire book. I've given away dozens of copies and 1 in 5 read it. 9 in 10 love if they really do (of course I choose who I give it to, so my numbers are slanted). Oh, and 500 pages is the hard part. The next 575 pages fly by! :wink: I wish she had never written Anthem, because that one truly is stupid, is her shortest and I suspect results in turning people away from her longer works… that are 10 to 1,000 times better. You said you have Atlas on your shelf, right? Put it on top of your to read list and read it. Trust me, you won't regret it, even if it only helps you understand the other side.
Anthem was great! Have you read it? If anything, it made me want to read more, because she does science fiction well. However, I don't generally join political cults, and her attitude which I've perceived from reading about her is distasteful to me. I prefer to have a social conscience and I believe we are supposed to, in the cosmic scheme of things.

the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
A couple books that helped shape my beliefs are Upton Sinclair's The Jungle
Shocked … I used that one because there is no anti-shock emoticon. :wink: Listen to me now: The romantic ideals of communism depicted by Sinclair in that book have proven unattainable in practice. His influence in your beliefs is very apparent and I am now convinced Atlas will cure you (I just mean center you).

Bill, I'd hardly call it romanticism! Have you read it? His book highlighted to me the workings of the ruling class and man's inhumanity to man. It also had a big impact on improving the rights of the working class; something the IMF doesn't care to do. I don't expect everyone in the world to be so equal that we're homogenous, nor would I like that. I am simply advocating that we treat each other well, and fairly. That's all. I would not like a communist state and I don't advocate anything of the sort. I think you've pegged me wrong. I expect a lot less than the social upheaval you seem to think I'd prefer. I realize that we need to look out for our own interests and that being #1 requires some shiftiness to stay there, and that shiftiness is inherent in humans. But it doesn't need to be the drive force all the time.
the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
and Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun,
That makes sense too. You're tougher than me. I don't think I could read that… too much suffering. A first edition's worth about gazillion dollars by the way if you have one.
I don't. I read it when I was about 15 and didn't save it, but it was in paperback at the time. I think everybody should read it. It might serve well as required reading for leaders of nations!

the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
I am actually more interested in being honest than in being right (most of the time Wink ) and have dispensed a few mea culpas when necessary
Same here! Only I do so without hesitation as soon as I figure out I'm wrong. Of course, I'm either seldom wrong or I seldom figure it out. :wink:
Yeah. Okay. Wink

the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
So my honest opinion is that I am disappointed that we are not the country I thought we were, and even more upset that sometimes we really suck. If pointing that out is upsetting to some, well, the truth hurts sometimes. But truth is more important than comfort, or patriotism, in my opinion.
I've known those were your honest feelings for a while now. You didn't really think I stopped beating on you on that other thread because you said you were beautiful, did you? I do wish you wouldn't assume all those who find your criticisms offensive are exhibiting blind, hyper partisan patriotic loyalty. Personally, I just think you're way to quick to go way over the top sometimes… like accepting that Bush intentionally watched the Twin Towers get hit… That one's in the foil-hat category. Rolling Eyes You must realize that both sides are dominated by people who will say anything to discredit the other side. Bush isn't worse anyone else. The unprecidented quantity of information these days just makes it seem that way.
I haven't accepted that, nor have I discarded it. I have simply acknowledged that it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Bush may not be worse than anybody else, but he runs his mouth off a bit too much for my liking and I don't find his sneering visage toward people who aren't like him in any way presidential. Because of what I have heard him say and because of what he has done, I think he's a terrible president and a terrible representative of the United States.
the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
The bumper stickers make me laugh. I'm an American, but I'm not proud to be one, I'm just lucky! We all are.
Yes we are lucky but that's no reason not to be proud of the brave men and women who do the thankless dirty work. I'm ashamed when I hear references to Vietnam Veterans having been spit on and called nasty names and want from now on for our soldiers to come home to bumper stickers, flags and yellow ribbons everywhere they look. They deserve it, and that's why I do it. It has nothing to do me or misplaced patriotism or anything to laugh at. It's about the troops. Idea [/quote]

I stand by my statement! Not proud, (especially not right now) but lucky. Vietnam Vets were treated terribly because America was made aware during that era of a fact we have become much more aware of these past few years; that America is not what we thought she was. The difference now is that people have realized it is not the fault of the troops, but of the men who employ them. I feel awful for the vietnam soldiers as well, and know many. It was hard for them but they don't hold it against the citizenry, in general. Proud of the troops, sure. proud of the country who sent them there? Not so sure. Not at the moment.

I know you don't mean it as too terribly insulting, but I'm hardly a "Dizzy Dame". I've been politically active for over 25 years and am hardly at the same place where I started. I didn't pick an ideology and stick with it, and I'm still learning and more importantly, thinking.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2004 10:35 am
the reincarnation of suzy wrote:
I know you don't mean it as too terribly insulting, but I'm hardly a "Dizzy Dame". I've been politically active for over 25 years and am hardly at the same place where I started. I didn't pick an ideology and stick with it, and I'm still learning and more importantly, thinking.
I meant no insult whatsoever, and retract it if it's taken that way. The balance of this last paragraph tells me there's hope for you yet. :wink: Yes I read Anthem and The Jungle. The Jungle is by far the better book and belongs on the "classic shelf". I didn't read any classics until after my 25th birthday, so I was already attuned to picking up hidden perspectives when I read the Jungle. That was a barely concealed advertisement for communism. Really.

Anthem is a small cartoonish snapshot of objectivism. My distaste for it is that it simplifies an already oversimplified idea to the point that it makes Rand look foolish. If you actually liked that one, it's possible you will love Atlas. Forget the criticisms you've read about her work. My sister is as far left as you, and she's the one who first recommended the book to my mom who in turn offered to pay me to read it. Shocked These are people who've read thousands of books and don't recommend crap. Honest, but enough about that.

I think we're as close as we're going to get on the rest of that stuff too. It's been interesting. :wink:
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2004 01:58 pm
"I think we're as close as we're going to get on the rest of that stuff too. It's been interesting."

Yeah, I think so too.

"The balance of this last paragraph tells me there's hope for you yet."

You should give it a shot yourself, Bill, heh heh! Smile

Thanks.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 02:22 pm
Great stuff you 2. Reminds me why I love A2k.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 08:00 pm
Glad you enjoyed it.
I must admit I'm dissapointed that more people didn't chime in!
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 08:52 pm
Oh sure. Now I'm chopped liver.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 10:23 pm
Don't be silly Bill! You're right up there with Spam in my book! Wink
Spammity Spam, Wonderful Spam!
Gotta love it!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 10:36 pm
Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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