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Sharon calls for Jews to get out of France.

 
 
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:21 am
Ariel Sharon's call for Jews to leave France and live in Israel for their own safety would be laughable if it wasn't so sinister.

I heard a French Gaullist Deputy say this morning he was "scandalised" by the suggestion. Sharon is clearly attempting to subvert the French state and with it the cohesion of the EU. So what's the deal?

He wants French Jews to leave France and the EU, a country where discrimination is unlawful for Israel, which discriminates on grounds of race and religion, has a government which practices targetted assassination and flouts international law.

He wants French people of Jewish religion to swap their EU/French passports for Israeli passports. (Presumably making world travel that much easier/more exciting?).

He wants them to leave the EU of 450 million people for the wonderful job prospects and opportunities of a basket case economy, where peace and security doesn't exist.

Sharon implies that the French and French government is anti-semitic, whilst ignoring the fact that attacks on Jews in France are often a reaction to his own murderous policies in the middle east.

Is Sharon seriously suggesting French Jews leave France, a jewel of culture, history - civilisation itself, for a patch of desert surrounded by hostile people, where travelling on a bus is like playing Russian roulette, and vicious arguments rage over the basic necessities of life such as water?

Yet he suggests that Jews get out of France for their own saftey!

What possible inducements could he offer? Guaranteed jobs in the form of conscription into the Israeli Defense Force? Free bus passes?

And how would Mr Sharon react if Mr Chirac suggested the Zionist experiment in Israel had basically failed, and that for the safety and protection of Jewish people, all Israelis of European origin were welcome back into the new expanded European Union?

I would suggest Mr Sharon would be pretty upset.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 2,673 • Replies: 41
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:39 am
also here http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29175

good poll, my answer : No and silly question. France has the largest jewish and muslim commune in Europe. The should live together. Sharon said, that the muslim attacks jewish. That what Sharon said is also racism. He is against moslems and Europe.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:21 am
Sharon is quickly becoming the single largest embarrassment to Jews worldwide. Rolling Eyes
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Setanta
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:22 am
So Cav, when are you heading to the promised land?
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Rick d Israeli
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:25 am
That is a grave accusation there Thok. I'm not going to approve nor disapprove with the Zionist ideology, but from their point of view, it will always be a risk for Jews to live in "Gentile" countries - and therefore they should move to Israel. Many Zionists back this fact by the Holocaust: 'look at all those European Jews who thought they were accepted by their Gentile neighbors. They were wrong!'. Now this is discussable. To get a good picture of the situation for France's Jews, you should turn to their leaders, what they have to say about it. As pointed out very good in Walter's thread, they are simply saying that Sharon has to back off. And so that is what I believe Sharon should do: don't interfere.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:27 am
Setanta wrote:
So Cav, when are you heading to the promised land?


As soon as I get my flak jacket and howitzer licence.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:28 am
Betcha didn't know you could learn heavy artillelery on the internet.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:28 am
Don't try to take that howitzer in your carry-on, security might spot it. Then again . . .
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:31 am
I'll just put it on a leash and say it's my dog, and he has mange.
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Galilite
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:47 am
Re: Sharon calls for Jews to get out of France.
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Ariel Sharon's call for Jews to leave France and live in Israel for their own safety would be laughable if it wasn't so sinister.
Yes it's laughable alright. Can't see anything sinister here though.
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
He wants French people of Jewish religion to swap their EU/French passports for Israeli passports. (Presumably making world travel that much easier/more exciting?).
Why swap? What about dual citizenship? Besides, it's not so bad - I travel visa-free in most countries you do (including EU). Oh, I can't visit some of the educated countries like Malaysia who believe that I'm a part of worldwide conspiracy.
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
He wants them to leave the EU of 450 million people for the wonderful job prospects and opportunities of a basket case economy, where peace and security doesn't exist.
Yes. Although I believe some might do this for ideological reasons.

Also, Israeli economy is not so basket case.
GDP per capita is not as high as in France, but way higher than of most of the new EU members:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_cap&id=EUR&id=is

total GDP:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp&id=EUR&id=is

But hey, US pays for all this, right? Nope:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_aid_rec_gdp&id=EUR&id=is

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_aid_rec_cap&id=EUR&id=is

Also an interesting piece of data: national innovative capacity of Israel is higher than that of Japan, Italy, Belgium or Spain. Are those basket economies?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_inn

(Sources are: CIA factbook, UN statistics)
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Yet he suggests that Jews get out of France for their own safety!

What possible inducements could he offer? Guaranteed jobs in the form of conscription into the Israeli Defense Force? Free bus passes?
As I pointed out earlier, the reasons are mostly ideological plus national identification / religious. And yes, as I was told by those who arrived from France, it's a ***hole compared to France, but it's more fun being a Jew here than there (yes, keeping in mind the suicide bombings).

As for the material part, there are extensive newcomer aid programs (loans, gifts, free Hebrew courses, tax exemption, etc.).

BTW: this might surprise you, but there's a significant number of French Jews here. You might want to read this:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/archive/index.php/t-5511.html
Quote:
During last 12 months, 144,000 new babies were born in Israel and 21,000 new immigrants came. 11,000 of these from former USSR, 2,600 from Ethiopia, 1,800 from France, 1,600 from the United States and 1,200 from Argentina.
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
And how would Mr Sharon react if Mr Chirac suggested the Zionist experiment in Israel had basically failed, and that for the safety and protection of Jewish people, all Israelis of European origin were welcome back into the new expanded European Union?

I would suggest Mr Sharon would be pretty upset.
I wouldn't. There was a precedent when an Australian minister reportedly (but I believe the reports were true) invited young Israelis to migrate to Australia.

I neither justify Sharon nor the questionable Israeli practice of recruiting cannon fodder by all means. However, I cannot accept this near-hysterical tone of someone who didn't really research the subject before making far-fetched claims.
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Thok
 
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Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 04:57 am
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
That is a grave accusation there Thok.


well, it´s hard but Sharon is mad. So every folk should be have a own state: Jewish, they have it already; Palestinians and Kurds; for example.

Sharon, he critics before a few month the europeans about their policy. That´s unacceptable. No to anti semitic, but also no to sharon´s anti europe policy.

Last but not least: We all should be living together.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:07 am
Look I do not approve of Sharon and his actions, not in Israel nor do I approve of his ideas for, in this case, the Jews in France. But I find it rather strange to conclude that Sharon is 'anti-Europe'. When I criticize Israel I do not get the idea I'm anti-Israel. Now, we are not talking about whether Sharon is right or not (in my eyes he is not). But anti-Europe? No.
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Galilite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:14 am
Re: Sharon calls for Jews to get out of France.
Galilite wrote:
...
Whoops, the NationMaster links didn't work as intended...

Good point, Rick.
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:22 am
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
But anti-Europe? No.


Maybe it´s grave accusation. But if it is always a meeting between EU members and Sharon, so there is a uproar by him with his neary and very hard anti europe statement.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 06:39 am
Sigh, Peres is so much more careful a speaker than Sharon.

Bush - Powell

Sharon - Peres

The wrong guy is president/PM.
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Galilite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 06:42 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Sigh, Peres is so much more careful a speaker than Sharon.

Bush - Powell

Sharon - Peres

The wrong guy is president/PM.
100% true.

The problem is, Peres was never popular enough to be elected, and others (nevermind left or right wing) are much worse (that is, less competent) than Sharon...
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 06:46 am
Peres is more competent and he is also peace Nobelprize holder....
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 06:50 am
I was in favor of Rabin, especially after I had read his biography. It is very sad he was killed. It seemed to me he was THE guy who could really bring some peace in the area.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 06:52 am
Galilite wrote:
The problem is, Peres was never popular enough to be elected, and others (nevermind left or right wing) are much worse (that is, less competent) than Sharon...


Am I right to say that Peres is too reasonable in an wholly unreasonable climate?

I brought it up because in both cases I like the foreign minister a lot more and in both cases the men are the ones I most want to see heading up their respective countries out of anyone out there.

I've never wanted someone to be president more than I do Powell and never wanted someone to be prime minister more than Peres.
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Galilite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 07:28 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Am I right to say that Peres is too reasonable in an wholly unreasonable climate?
Absolutely. Peres doesn't behave like a Middle Eastern politician.
Craven de Kere wrote:
I brought it up because in both cases I like the foreign minister a lot more and in both cases the men are the ones I most want to see heading up their respective countries out of anyone out there.
Yes, he is a person of historic caliber. He just found himself in a wrong country :-( .
Craven de Kere wrote:
I've never wanted someone to be president more than I do Powell and never wanted someone to be prime minister more than Peres.
Can't say anything about Powell - after all, he wasn't in a higher position, but completely agree about Peres. He also has a long track of saving Israel (the hyperinflation of mid-80s was much more dangerous for the country than the situation today), although the main project of his life, the peace process, was malplanned. I don't see it as his fault though - probably more of those who were supposed to back him, his political party. Alas, today he's too old to head the country.
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