Moses thought the world was at one time perfect. What happened?

@neologist,

Since you're now expanding Moses to mean "even a committee", I'd be mildly amused to see how your Christian apologetics stance deals with the denial of Moses as an individual.

1 Reply

@Chumly,

The OP relates to the text, sir. It doesn't mean a rat's rump who wrote it.
That I believe it was Moses has no bearing on what happened.

2 Replies

@neologist,

God is the Light of the Word. a world without sin exists only in the image of God. Seek that image and see that it never leads astray, nor does it have flaw. Flaw is only found in people who do not follow the Word of God, for they are the corrupt and foolish.

The Bible is the Historical record of the world kept by the Jews. Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible. So discern wisely that judging God or the Bible or any other religion based on human error is your own display of idiocy.

The Word of God is fruitful, rejoice worthy, inspirational, and wise.
and people who live in hurricane terrain, or near volcanoes, or earthquake lands.. they are idiots too. The word of God is Good guidance and loving inspiration.

The World is Perfect. If you acknowledge that you must REACT accordingly and live here appropriately.

1 Reply

@GorDie,

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/11108201_820473038047502_4497497652851106973_n.jpg

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@FBM,

Doesn't take much to get you started, eh?

1 Reply

@neologist,

I keep Photobucket bookmarked.

1 Reply

@FBM,

Yeah. But Bill Flavell is an idiot who really has no idea about the definition of evidence and how it relates to proof.
I know you're smarter than that.

There is plenty of evidence that may be used to show the existence of God. There is also plenty of evidence used to prove evolution.

So how do you evaluate the complexity of a single cell in light of the astronomical odds against its chance creation? That's where basic axioms,definitions, and standards of proof become involved. Coin flip won't work.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

There is plenty of evidence that may be used to show the existence of God. There is also plenty of evidence used to prove evolution.

Show me this evidence for god.

neologist wrote:

So how do you evaluate the complexity of a single cell in light of the astronomical odds against its chance creation? That's where basic axioms,definitions, and standards of proof become involved. Coin flip won't work.

Well your scope is too narrow that is why you can't figure it out. Our galaxy has over a hundred billion stars. We have been discovering that almost every star checked has planets. So far over ten thousand are around the size of the Earth. We have only scratched the surface because the small area we have been checking. If it's not a fluke then statistically if you were to examine other parts of the galaxy you'll find a similar amount. There could be hundreds of millions of Earth sized planets. With those odds the chances of life doesn't seem so impractical. It was bound to happen somewhere, it just happens we are where it happened. It's simple statistics. Nothing special about it and no god required.

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@Krumple,

Are there any gods, Krumple?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Yeah. But Bill Flavell is an idiot who really has no idea about the definition of evidence and how it relates to proof.
I know you're smarter than that.

There is plenty of evidence that may be used to show the existence of God. There is also plenty of evidence used to prove evolution.

So how do you evaluate the complexity of a single cell in light of the astronomical odds against its chance creation? That's where basic axioms,definitions, and standards of proof become involved. Coin flip won't work.

I have no idea who Bill Flavell is, but I suspect your comment is an ad hom, rather than an addressing of the content of the statement, so I'll just let that hang there.

As for the odds against abiogenesis, I doubt they're anything like "astronomical." You have a planet composed of such-and-such elements, it's in the Goldilocks Zone and you've got billions of years to wait. The 'billions of years' part seems to be the part that the religious mindset disregards most. Given sufficient time, anything that's possible becomes inevitable. Astronomical odds? I think not. Just a waiting game.

1 Reply

@FBM,

You post a jpeg with Bill Flavell's name on it, but never checked to see whether he may be locked up somewhere?

Did I mention astronomical odds? I was being kind. What if the odds are zero?

And, oh yeah. The Bible allows for the earth to be billions of years old.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

. . . . It's simple statistics. . ..

O Kay

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

You post a jpeg with Bill Flavell's name on it, but never checked to see whether he may be locked up somewhere?

Did I mention astronomical odds? I was being kind. What if the odds are zero?

Do you understand what an ad hom is? His personal status has nothing to do with the truth value of his statement.

Why bother with 'what if's'? We've got a lot of science describing what I outlined. Do you have a direct response to that?

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Moses is generally thought to have written the first five books of the bible This is how he described God's work in Genesis:
Quote:
. . . behold, it was very good. (Genesis 1:31)
A lot of bad stuff happened after that - very bad.

Yet, he continued to maintain God's work was perfect.
Quote:
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.(Deuteronomy 32:4)
So, did Moses have it all 100% wrong? Or, is there another explanation that takes Moses' point of view into account as he continued his writing?

I've mended my kevlar helmet and I'm ready. So fire away.

Well fisrt of all, moses didn't write the first five books. It is well documented that the books had at least 8 different writers. Some of the books had multiple writers, where one would fill in bits or write in their own stuff. But you didn't take the time to actually read or research anything about the history of the bible from actual bible scholars. It is also suggested that the entire book of deuteronomy is a forgery. The writing style is completely different than all the other books and some of the word usage was not even present at the time they were supposed to have been written. Not making any of this up, it comes straight from the bible scholars.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neo wrote:

The OP relates to the text, sir. It doesn't mean a rat's rump who wrote it.
That I believe it was Moses has no bearing on what happened.

It does matter though. You believe that a Moses wrote it and proceed with a belief that what you presume he wrote is inerrant and non-contradictory. You proceed from there to preform linguistic, interpretational and mental gymnastics to maintain the integrity of your assumptions.

Approaching these texts from another point of view--that an array of writers, editors and redactors were involved in the production of these texts throughout the centuries--results in a different interpretation of these texts and does not require mental pirouettes to account for their inconsistencies and contradictions.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

See Blue's comment vis a vis Moses' authorship above and my response below.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Approaching these texts from another point of view--that an array of writers, editors and redactors were involved in the production of these texts throughout the centuries--results in a different interpretation of these texts and does not require mental pirouettes to account for their inconsistencies and contradictions.

Nah.
The focus of the OP was on the text. Moses' authorship aside, someone compiled it into a unit. And the unit contains what it contains.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Yeah, the unit contains what it contains, and conclusions of what it contains is dependent on how what it contains is interpreted.

You take at face value the contents which state that "Moses" wrote the units. That colors your interpretation of those units in ways different from those who do not take those contents at face value.

This assumption of yours is the very basis of your question. It colors your response to it as well.

"Moses thought the world was at one time perfect. What happened?"

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Krumple wrote:
. . . . It's simple statistics. . ..

O Kay

What happens to your argument if we discover that life is extremely common in our galaxy? Would you say that life arising is rare? But even if we are the only living planet in the entire galaxy it still doesn't mean life is a fluke or could only arise by the hand of some god.

The chances are extremely high that there is life on other planets within our galaxy. Because chemistry is the same everywhere. The chemistry that caused life to arise on Earth happens and that same chemistry can happen when the conditions are right for it.

1 Reply

@neologist,

did you forget that you wrote this one page back?

neologist wrote:

I understand the contoversy over Moses' authorship; but I continue believing he wrote, not only the Pentateuch, but also the book of Job.

1 Reply

Moses thought the world was at one time perfect. What happened?

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