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14 year old student bangs teacher, then calls the cops

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 07:21 pm
IronLionZion wrote:
People - when I said the "male is more likely to be the pursuer" I meant it in the biological sense, not in specific relation to this case. And, nimh, if biologically ingrained gender roles regarding sex are "pseudo-scientific baloney," your going to have a tough time explaining why we notice the same dynamic (pursuer, pursued) in pretty much every other animal on the planet.

Ah, thats what I thought - pseudo-scientific baloney. Thanks for confirming my suspicions there.

There are species where the male is not in fact the pursuer, as any occasional viewer of Animal Planet should know. Are they being "unnatural" because there are more of the other kind? Of course not. The no-brainer here is that one species' behaviour simply says nothing about what is natural for another's. And thus the span of patterns in the rest of the animal world also says nothing about what is natural (or "biologically ingrained") in humans.

As far as humans go, you and I well know that both men and women pursue each other quite diligently. It is true that in our culture, as Brandon so helpfully points out <giggles>, "males ask females out and females wait to be asked out". Well, thats how it used to be, anyway. I dont see how its still the case now, actually - but hey, perhaps I'm just part of a scene where we've lost all touch with our biologically ingrained selves, you never know. In any case, as Brandon already admitted, "The female may be pursuing in her own way" (duh). The whole, but she's not supposed to do the actual asking here thus is clearly mere social convention, that has demonstrably changed over time, too.

Then there's, of course, the glaring contrast between your assertion about what is biologically ingrained, and this story, in which it was obviously the woman who pursued, in the crudest way possible.

IronLionZion wrote:
I'll offer an anecdote, which I think solidifies my argument as indisputable: I would have banged my eighth grade teacher with glee, and likely would have trumpeted it throughout the school as a victory of sorts.

Right. That solidifies your argument? Seriously?

I had this English teacher myself that I thought was kinda hot. I gladly told myself I would just have loved to be with her. In actuality, it probably wouldnt have been so hot, and definitely not healthy.

There's no difference between men and women here. If anything, there's more teenage girls avidly fantasizing about their male teachers. But as story after story has shown us, when it actually starts happening, its often a different story. Even if the occasional male teacher/female student relationship did end up right, more often than not there's guilt and powertrips and some kind of abuse of position going on. Your bravado aside, there's little evidence that the same tricky psychological stuff wouldnt be coming up when it's a boy that gets involved in it. And this teacher, in any case, was clearly going on some kind of powertrip here.

Concerning the man/woman thing in general - leaving this case aside for a moment - let me go out on a limb actually and suggest that sexual abuse (of children and so on) by women is probably way underestimated. I'm sure its not anything like the scope of that of abuse by men, but I'd still bet something on it being far more widespread than ever gets out now.
0 Replies
 
drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jul, 2004 07:43 pm
*Bookmarking, to reply to this again, later*

Until then, I'll say that I absolutely agree with Nimh.

0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 03:33 am
I would like to open by saying that I know this is a controversial subject. I'm not making this argument out of a vacuous attempt to be provocative, out of naivete, social ineptitude, or lack of knowledge. I'm playing the devils advocate here because I think it is important that political correctness not blind us to the real differences between men and women. These differences do extend to the sexual realm and our approaches/reactions to sex.

nimh wrote:
There are species where the male is not in fact the pursuer, as any occasional viewer of Animal Planet should know. Are they being "unnatural" because there are more of the other kind? Of course not. The no-brainer here is that one species' behaviour simply says nothing about what is natural for another's. And thus the span of patterns in the rest of the animal world also says nothing about what is natural (or "biologically ingrained") in humans.


You're right. The point, however, is that some kind of pursuer/pursued dynamic exists in almost all animals. Which sex is on which side is irrelevant. It is only logical to assume that there is a dynamic drawn along similar lines in human beings, and I think the evidence is abundant that men are the pursuer while women are the pursued.

Also, the pursuer/pursued dynamic, aside from being ubiquitous in the animal kingdom, is also observed in human cultures all over the world. Whether it's America or Kenya, the male is the pursuer and the female is the pursued. If it is just a sterotype fostered by society then it is a remarkably universal one. The fact that it is universal indicates that this dynamic has its basis in biology, not social construction.

Quote:
As far as humans go, you and I well know that both men and women pursue each other quite diligently. It is true that in our culture, as Brandon so helpfully points out <giggles>, "males ask females out and females wait to be asked out". Well, thats how it used to be, anyway. I dont see how its still the case now, actually - but hey, perhaps I'm just part of a scene where we've lost all touch with our biologically ingrained selves, you never know. In any case, as Brandon already admitted, "The female may be pursuing in her own way" (duh). The whole, but she's not supposed to do the actual asking here thus is clearly mere social convention, that has demonstrably changed over time, too.


"Duh" indeed. I'd argue that although men and women seek each other out diligently, albeit in different ways, they are also looking for different things. That is the crux of this argument. More on that later.

Quote:
Then there's, of course, the glaring contrast between your assertion about what is biologically ingrained, and this story, in which it was obviously the woman who pursued, in the crudest way possible.


Clearly, I was speaking in general terms and there are exceptions to every rule. In any case - for the umpteenth time - I wasn't speaking specifically about this case.

Nimh wrote:
IronLionZion wrote:
I'll offer an anecdote, which I think solidifies my argument as indisputable: I would have banged my eighth grade teacher with glee, and likely would have trumpeted it throughout the school as a victory of sorts.

Right. That solidifies your argument? Seriously?


Obviously, I was joking. I would have thought you'd credit me with enough intelligence to not pass off a vague anecdote as being "indisputable" proof for my argument. I guess not.

nimh wrote:
There's no difference between men and women here. If anything, there's more teenage girls avidly fantasizing about their male teachers. But as story after story has shown us, when it actually starts happening, its often a different story. Even if the occasional male teacher/female student relationship did end up right, more often than not there's guilt and powertrips and some kind of abuse of position going on. Your bravado aside, there's little evidence that the same tricky psychological stuff wouldnt be coming up when it's a boy that gets involved in it. And this teacher, in any case, was clearly going on some kind of powertrip here.
Anne Moir wrote:
Some researchers have been frankly dismayed at what they have discovered. Some of their findings have been, if not suppressed, at least quietly shelved because of their potential social impact. But it is usually better to act on the basis of what is true, rather than to maintain, with the best will in the world, that what is true has no right to be so.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:11 am
All of that may, or may not, be so.

What does any of it have to do with a teacher screwing a minor student?
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 05:17 am
dlowan wrote:
All of that may, or may not, be so.

What does any of it have to do with a teacher screwing a minor student?


If I was a tad incoherant, you'll have to forgive me: it is 7:00 am, after all.

Here:
Quote:
It is not hard to see how I arrived at my conclusion: a male having sex with a female, even if that female is older and pursuing him, is unlikely to be as psychologically damaging as having a younger female being used for sex by an older man. The male is primarily concerned with copulation, and his emotions and mind are fine-tuned accordingly. The female is not.


By the way, I just noticed your post on the previous page. It's similar to nimh's. A few differences. I'll try to get to it later. But judging by the following paragraph, you have more experiance than any of us, no?

Quote:
I know from working with men who were molested as kids that, for many, (at least of the ones I have worked with), a significant part of the trauma has been about feeling that they have been made less male - that it is like being made like a woman, who are traditionally seen as the "normal" victims of sexual abuse and assault (hard for them to say to me, for obvious reasons - but there it was, lurking in the depths) - and that, for the very few - so far - I have worked with who were molested by women - it was particularly difficult for them to sort out exactly what the realities of the situation were - (unless they were extremely young at the time) whether it was abuse or not, because boys are supposed to be chasing sex, all the time - aren't they?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jul, 2004 06:46 am
The moral of the story is, don't bang your teachers or students until you get to university, when the law can't touch you.
0 Replies
 
blahblahnoonewantstoheari
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 03:33 pm
Re: 14 year old student bangs teacher, then calls the cops


MY CUZ MIKE'S GRANDMA LIVED NEXT DOOR TO DEBBIE AND MIKE LIVED THERE BASICALLY ALL THE TIME AND HE WOULD LIKE TO SAY HE'S REALLY PISSED OFF CUZ HE COULD HAVE GOTTEN SOME PUSSY FROM HER LIKE HIS WHOLE LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 03:45 pm
WHAT WAS THAT!!!!! I COULDN'T HEAR YOU!!!! WOOT!!!!

Getting back to normal posting, true story dude?
0 Replies
 
drom et reve
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 08:22 pm
Whether the learnèd words from 'Blahblah' are the result of ridiculous flannerie, or he actually knows the boy, the tale disgusts me. What did you think about her, Blah? (And, if he wanted to make the very beastly beast of two backs with his teacher, why did he inform the police?)

Incidentally, Iron; if males are the 'persuant' species all across the animal world, and this is natural, how is it that the first societies- the Khasi and the like- were/are matriarchal, and that the females in them were pursuers, and the males the persued? For these are certainly the clearest picture on how we (d)evolved.


0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 08:53 pm
Ha! In my view, the pursued/pursuer thing is a total furphy. Whether it is right or wrong is totally irrelevant to this situation.

I think some men bring it up because the idea of males not being sexually dominant, and being subject to abuse and "hunting" by women is unpalatable to them psychologically, plus some other stuff I said some posts back - which nobody has commented on, except ILZ, who misread it.

By this I do not mean that the fellas concerned are necessarily sexually dominating or such - what I mean is that the idea of the male/female role as they see it is deeply entrenched as part of some (all? dunno - the men would know far better than I about this) male identities, and they are confusing the dissonance this case triggers with some doubt about what happened. Hence, in my view, some of the - what I believe is called in the USA - "sophomoric humour" that appeared.

Some fellas here have drawn a clear line around the fact that this is child abuse - notwithstanding their views on the pursuer thing, I do recognize.
0 Replies
 
 

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