I would like to open by saying that I know this is a controversial subject. I'm not making this argument out of a vacuous attempt to be provocative, out of naivete, social ineptitude, or lack of knowledge. I'm playing the devils advocate here because I think it is important that political correctness not blind us to the real differences between men and women. These differences do extend to the sexual realm and our approaches/reactions to sex.
nimh wrote:There are species where the male is not in fact the pursuer, as any occasional viewer of Animal Planet should know. Are they being "unnatural" because there are more of the other kind? Of course not. The no-brainer here is that one species' behaviour simply says nothing about what is natural for another's. And thus the span of patterns in the rest of the animal world also says nothing about what is natural (or "biologically ingrained") in humans.
You're right. The point, however, is that some kind of pursuer/pursued dynamic exists in almost all animals. Which sex is on which side is irrelevant. It is only logical to assume that there is a dynamic drawn along similar lines in human beings, and I think the evidence is abundant that men are the pursuer while women are the pursued.
Also, the pursuer/pursued dynamic, aside from being ubiquitous in the animal kingdom, is also observed in human cultures all over the world. Whether it's America or Kenya, the male is the pursuer and the female is the pursued. If it is just a sterotype fostered by society then it is a remarkably universal one. The fact that it is universal indicates that this dynamic has its basis in biology, not social construction.
Quote:As far as humans go, you and I well know that both men and women pursue each other quite diligently. It is true that in our culture, as Brandon so helpfully points out <giggles>, "males ask females out and females wait to be asked out". Well, thats how it used to be, anyway. I dont see how its still the case now, actually - but hey, perhaps I'm just part of a scene where we've lost all touch with our biologically ingrained selves, you never know. In any case, as Brandon already admitted, "The female may be pursuing in her own way" (duh). The whole, but she's not supposed to do the actual asking here thus is clearly mere social convention, that has demonstrably changed over time, too.
"Duh" indeed. I'd argue that although men and women seek each other out diligently, albeit in different ways, they are also looking for different things. That is the crux of this argument. More on that later.
Quote:Then there's, of course, the glaring contrast between your assertion about what is biologically ingrained, and this story, in which it was obviously the woman who pursued, in the crudest way possible.
Clearly, I was speaking in general terms and there are exceptions to every rule. In any case - for the umpteenth time - I wasn't speaking specifically about this case.
Nimh wrote:IronLionZion wrote:I'll offer an anecdote, which I think solidifies my argument as indisputable: I would have banged my eighth grade teacher with glee, and likely would have trumpeted it throughout the school as a victory of sorts.
Right. That solidifies your argument? Seriously?
Obviously, I was joking. I would have thought you'd credit me with enough intelligence to not pass off a vague anecdote as being "indisputable" proof for my argument. I guess not.
nimh wrote:There's no difference between men and women here. If anything, there's more teenage girls avidly fantasizing about their male teachers. But as story after story has shown us, when it actually starts happening, its often a different story. Even if the occasional male teacher/female student relationship did end up right, more often than not there's guilt and powertrips and some kind of abuse of position going on. Your bravado aside, there's little evidence that the same tricky psychological stuff wouldnt be coming up when it's a boy that gets involved in it. And this teacher, in any case, was clearly going on some kind of powertrip here.
Listen, I agree that sexual abuse of 14-year-olds is abhorrant. I'm merely arguing that there is a difference between older women engaging in sex with younger males and older men engaging in sex with younger females.
As to your point that men and women both fantasize about teachers: I'm inclined to agree with you. However, I'd argue that the nature of those fantasies differs greatly. More on this later as well.
Gender roles are more than just a social construction, as you seem to be arguing. The argument that there is a biological basis for much of male/female sexual interaction is rich in empirical evidence.
There are numerous studies showing that men and women have different brain structure, and this results in different perceptions, priorities, and behaviors. It is odd then, that while research indicating differences between men and women has been growing, there has been a simultaneous political and public denial of these differences, in favor of the politically correct view that the sexes are ?'the same.'
These differences begin to make sense when viewed through the lens of evolutionary history. The female has much more riding on sex than the male. The female has the responsibility of going through pregnancy, and then the momentous task of nurturing and raising children. The male, on the other hand, need only invest a few minutes of copulation. This has far-reaching consequences.
Males compete for access to females, which they do in numerous ways - hoarding resources, physical competition, using their personalities to persuade. The ultimate goal is to spread your sperm into as many women as possible, thus maximizing the chances of you passing on your genes to the next generation.
Women also compete for men. However, females are looking for only one mate. They seek out the ones most likely to invest the time and resources necessary to rear children, not the ones most likely to copulate. And, although women are also prone to infidelity, they are motivated by "quality not quantity." The goal for female infidelity is to get the most virile sperm while still holding on to the best partner.
The end result is something like this: men are motivated to have sex with as many partners as possible. Women are motivated by the desire to find a mate that is both physically fit and most likely to invest in raising a child. Hence the pursuer pursued dynamic I alluded to earlier. The biological differences between men and women are in line with this dynamic.
I can link studies showing differences in the way men and women approach sex and react to sex if you really want. Or you can Google it yourslef. A few brief examples: studies have shown that there is a bio-chemical basis for women forming emotional connections after having sex with a man, there are several fundamental differences in male/female brain structure, from a very early age females are more concerned with people and relationships, etc, etc, etc, etc.
It is not hard to see how I arrived at my conclusion: a male having sex with a female, even if that female is older and pursuing him, is unlikely to be as psychologically damaging as having a younger female being used for sex by an older man. The male is primarily concerned with copulation, and his emotions and mind are fine-tuned accordingly. The female is not.
I'm not defending what happened. It was definitely wrong. Besides, biology aside, such relationships run the risk of being damaging because of the power dynamic between the older and younger. The law should make no distinction when it comes to such activity. The only thing I would change is to make the penalties harsher. I'd make them harsher still when the victim is younger than 14-years-old.
I'll end by quoting someone more eloquent than me, Anne Moir:
Anne Moir wrote:Some researchers have been frankly dismayed at what they have discovered. Some of their findings have been, if not suppressed, at least quietly shelved because of their potential social impact. But it is usually better to act on the basis of what is true, rather than to maintain, with the best will in the world, that what is true has no right to be so.
