Rick d'Israeli wrote:TradingWise wrote:Socialist also favour common production and possession of goods and distribution. There is no difference with communism.
[..] Maybe Americans see "socialists" as communists, but I can assure you, that is not true. We do not preach total state control; we do not preach the abolishment of all religious institutions; we do not preach the killing of our political opponents - all facets of (Soviet) communism
I think social-democracy, socialism and communism are each distinct political philosophies, even when there have been overlaps and "leentjebuur" in the use of the respective labels.
In addition to Rick's list of distinctions between socialism and communism I would add that socialists do not believe in the doctrine of the Party as the avant-garde of the proletariat. An important distinction since the communists' belief in said role of the Party led directly, imho, to the excesses of Soviet dictatorship. The "avant-garde" claimed to know and act on behalf of the workers' true interests even when the workers may 'not have realised it yet' themselves, and based on this self-perception as avant-garde of a historically unavoidable process, argued to themselves that they were 'historically justified' in clamping down on any workers or peasants rebellion against their newly established rule - they would only be grateful for it later ...
The redefinition of the concept of "dictatorship of the proletariat" as a label for one-party rule, which allowed itself to crush all dissent, is a communist invention, and remained repudiated by most socialists. Communists also distinguished themselves from socialists by their organisational focus: building on the "avant-garde" notion, the idea was to have conspirative, highly hierarchical party structures in which loyalty and discipline were paramount. Socialists have, conversely, mostly advocated party democracy and pluriformity. This distinction, too, clearly played out in what happened in the Soviet Union once the communists (Bolsheviks) did gain power.
Communists have been highly militaristic, socialists mostly pacifist. Communists in principle worked towards the forceful overthrow of the current, capitalist system; socialists worked towards
overcoming the current system, while social-democrats are OK with the current system if it is sufficiently moderated by the social arrangements of the welfare state.
All these distinctions are rather shablonic and have been varied upon in many ways, but the basic distinction between communism and socialism has always been kept up and felt intensely. And one of the main, practical differences was of course the attitude vis-a-vis the Soviet Union. Communists (later "Eurocommunists" excepted) looked towards the SU as an example; socialists condemned the Soviet Union as much as they did the US. To use an example that will be immediately clear for all three of us: the PSP was no CPN. An ideological, political and attitudinal gulf put the parties in different worlds at least up through the late 70s.
The difference between socialists and social-democrats may be harder to draw in party-political terms in many countries, but I dunno, I would summarize it this way: socialists, even if they've repudiated the idea of a revolutionary overthrow of the system, do not think the answer to society's ills can ever be achieved within a market economy. Even if they work within the current parliamentary system, they do so with an ideological belief that the end result will or should be a socialist system in which ownership is to the people rather than to corporations. Social-democrats, on the other hand, have accepted the basic given of the market economy, but think capitalism can be sufficiently suffused, through communal and state programs, with social responsibility and solidarity to make it a pleasant place to be in. That would make the Labour Party social-democratic and the SP a mix between socialdemocratic and socialist (tho it was still very much socialist just ten years ago or so). As for the Green Left ... I think there aren't many true socialists in the party anymore ... lots of social-democratic angehauchte free-thinking radicals though. Perhaps it will ultimately end up an environmentalist, left-liberal party - the German Greens are heading that way quickly enough ...
Leuk! Er zijn hier niet zoveel Nederlanders - nimh is dan wel de bekendste hier, verder heb je nog ehm wat is haar naam ook al weer, ehhh (...denkt....), ik ben de naam vergeten
, en dan heb je ook nog magnum uit Rotterdam, en dat is het dan ongeveer al weer (waarschijnlijk ben ik er een paar vergeten, nimh zal me dan wel verbeteren :wink: ). Maar welkom!
