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Michael Moore, Hero or Rogue

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 06:32 am
yep. pretty much. "reality fiction".
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 10:32 am
The true "reality fiction" is this administration's rhetoric about WMDs in Iraq and the Saddam-Al Qaida connection.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 04:20 pm
Quote:
Its true what Moore does is simply imbellish the truth to make what he says look true. He rarely says anything completely flase because it would make everything he said questionable. He just tries to stir things up and make things go his way.


Yup, Just like the rest of us............it's easier to see it in others than to see it in ourselves.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 06:09 pm
Huh, Lola, I think there are matters of degrees in this - we are not "all the same" in such matters. Some are considerably more conscientious/anal (circle which of the two you prefer applying) than others.

The 'well we all do something like that' trick is a classic one used to obscure distinctions in whatever apologetic argument. But it is important to keep a perspective to place things in comparatively. Not every liberal columnist plays as loose with facts as Moore, even if they do all apply a political slant. Not every right-wing radio commentator is as outrageous as Rush Limbaugh, even if all of them express partisan views of some sort. To brush aside the differences in this philosophical, 'well, thats what everybody does in some way or other' kind of way is a bit of an affront to those that do scrupulously try to avoid cheap populism and convenient truth-bending, even if that means skipping an easy score now and then.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 06:48 pm
Gregg Easterbrook at TNR:

Quote:
Bowling for Columbine [..] includes many staged scenes and outright fabrications. A few examples: Moore declares that the United States government was funding the Taliban in 2000 and 2001; but the figures he cites turn out to be humanitarian aid donations made to the United Nations, earmarked for hunger relief in Afghanistan. [snip]

What's disturbing about Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 is that both are classic propaganda. Events are shown out of order, suggesting conspiracy by confusing audiences about the sequence of events; events are shown out of context, edited to create an appearance differing from actual events; scenes of horror are intermixed with scenes of normalcy, suggesting all is horror; viewers are given no way of knowing what is fact, what is opinion, and what is made up.

By the way, did you know that James Madison once attended a secret meeting? Did you know that George W. Bush has quoted James Madison, and that the indexes of several books contain both the names Bush and Osama bin Laden, and that Saudi sources have awarded billions of dollars in contracts, and that Saudi financial dealings have been the subject of investigations, and that a subsidiary of a company a Bush family member once held stock in did business with another company that had an office in Saudi Arabia, and that George W. Bush has never denied these links between him, billions of dollars of Saudi payments, and secret meetings with James Madison? That's a sample of the kind of thinking in Fahrenheit 9/11.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 07:26 pm
I'm reluctant to put any credibility into some blogger's so-called research. Nine boys from my school which mean when Moore knew them. This person is nitpicking semantics and coming up with statistics that are incorrect. He's doing what the accuses Moore of doing. It's being done everyday. This isn't the point, of course, because despite nitpicking at the movie it has a direction and power than is unmistakable and has reached 80M in box office to match the 80% favorable critical response. I can do the same thing -- pick at trivialities to try and disprove the total impact of the film. If you haven't actually seen the film, incidentally, this is obvious borrowing of opinion from sites that do not have but a tiny percentage of the resources Moore has to fact check.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 07:29 pm
Lola wrote:
Quote:
Its true what Moore does is simply imbellish the truth to make what he says look true. He rarely says anything completely flase because it would make everything he said questionable. He just tries to stir things up and make things go his way.


Yup, Just like the rest of us............it's easier to see it in others than to see it in ourselves.


Right, Lola -- it's done here on a daily basis. Sewing together facts to try and prove a premise or opinion. It rarely works because the seamtress is working on the bias.
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rufio
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 07:51 pm
Micheal Moore is an idiot. I think that about covers it. His existence is the first sign of our celebrity-driven culture taking a flying leap over the edge of some proverbial cliff.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 08:12 pm
Moore might think you are an idiot. Now you're even.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 08:18 pm
rufio wrote:
Micheal Moore is an idiot. I think that about covers it. His existence is the first sign of our celebrity-driven culture taking a flying leap over the edge of some proverbial cliff.


lightwizard wrote:
Moore might think you are an idiot. Now you're even.


Be careful rufio, LW is the President of the A2K Michael Moore Fan Club. Dis Moore and you'll have LW to answer to. Cool
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 08:27 pm
So sorry but I'm not anybody's "fan." He made a great film and it's getting the critical and financial reward it deserves. Not much different than many films that are produced each years and a long list of films that I would say the same thing about in the past. If you haven't seen the film, you're just bullshitting.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2004 09:07 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
So sorry but I'm not anybody's "fan." He made a great film and it's getting the critical and financial reward it deserves. Not much different than many films that are produced each years and a long list of films that I would say the same thing about in the past. If you haven't seen the film, you're just bullshitting.


Thou protests too much.

What does my seeing the film have to do with my assessment of your devotion to Moore? I could easily link to a half dozen postings of yours where you break into the flow of the thread to report the latest box office reciepts for his film. The proof is in the posting puddin LW.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 03:32 am
Which in itself is an utter non-argument.

Someone reports that Moore in his movie(s) lied about x and y; LW comes in and says, well, but it has reached 80M in box office! Nonsequitur.

Not a long time ago, 70% of the US population believed Saddam had a hand in 9/11. That didnt make it any more true either. A call to the authority of the masses in no way refutes any allegation.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 03:59 am
Anyway. LW is - justifiably - suspicious of some blogger's claims.

What about Newsweek?

This article summarises some of the same and some other critical questions, but with much more detailed explanations about them. It does so in a way that is indeed a bit of a relief compared to the putdown-riddled blogger writings - but is therefore all the more convincing a refutal of Moore's purported case. And the points just keep on coming ...

Thats the risk of bending the truth too much for your propaganda - you can end up discrediting your own case. The writers here put it as almost a tragic case: by going overboard in riddling his movie with innuendo, Moore himself spoils what otherwise would be a great movie.

Quote:
Newsweek: More Distortions From Michael Moore

Some of the main points in ?'Fahrenheit 9/11' really aren't very fair at all


WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Newsweek
Updated: 6:26 p.m. ET June 30, 2004

June 30 - In his new movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11," film-maker Michael Moore makes the eye-popping claim that Saudi Arabian interests "have given" $1.4 billion to firms connected to the family and friends of President George W. Bush. This, Moore suggests, helps explain one of the principal themes of the film: that the Bush White House has shown remarkable solicitude to the Saudi royals, even to the point of compromising the war on terror. When you and your associates get money like that, Moore says at one point in the movie, "who you gonna like? Who's your Daddy?"

But a cursory examination of the claim reveals some flaws in Moore's arithmetic?-not to mention his logic. Moore derives the $1.4 billion figure from journalist Craig Unger's book, "House of Bush, House of Saud." Nearly 90 percent of that amount, $1.18 billion, comes from just one source: contracts in the early to mid-1990's that the Saudi Arabian government awarded to a U.S. defense contractor, BDM, for training the country's military and National Guard. What's the significance of BDM? The firm at the time was owned by the Carlyle Group, the powerhouse private-equity firm whose Asian-affiliate advisory board has included the president's father, George H.W. Bush.

Leave aside the tenuous six-degrees-of-separation nature of this "connection." The main problem with this figure, according to Carlyle spokesman Chris Ullman, is that former president Bush didn't join the Carlyle advisory board until April, 1998?-five months after Carlyle had already sold BDM to another defense firm. True enough, the former president was paid for one speech to Carlyle and then made an overseas trip on the firm's behalf the previous fall, right around the time BDM was sold. But Ullman insists any link between the former president's relations with Carlyle and the Saudi contracts to BDM that were awarded years earlier is entirely bogus. "The figure is inaccurate and misleading," said Ullman. "The movie clearly implies that the Saudis gave $1.4 billion to the Bushes and their friends. But most of it went to a Carlyle Group company before Bush even joined the firm. Bush had nothing to do with BDM."

In light of the extraordinary box office success of "Fahrenheit 9/11," and its potential political impact, a rigorous analysis of the film's assertions seems more than warranted. Indeed, Moore himself has invited the scrutiny. He has set up a Web site and "war-room" to defend the claims in the movie?-and attack his critics. (The war-room's overseers are two veteran spin-doctors from the Clinton White House: Chris Lehane and Mark Fabiani.) Moore also this week contended that the media was pounding away at him "pretty hard" because "they're embarrassed. They've been outed as people who did not do their job." Among the media critiques prominently criticized was an article in Newsweek.

In response to inquiries from NEWSWEEK about the Carlyle issue, Lehane shot back this week with a volley of points: There were multiple Bush "connections" to the Carlyle Group throughout the period of the Saudi contracts to BDM, Lehane noted in an e-mail, including the fact that the firm's principals included James Baker (Secretary of State during the first Bush administration) and Richard Darman (the first Bush's OMB chief). Moreover, George W. Bush himself had his own Carlyle Group link: between 1990 and 1994, he served on the board of another Carlyle-owned firm, Caterair, a now defunct airline catering firm.

But unmentioned in "Fahrenheit/911," or in the Lehane responses, is a considerable body of evidence that cuts the other way. The idea that the Carlyle Group is a wholly owned subsidiary of some loosely defined "Bush Inc." concern seems hard to defend. Like many similar entities, Carlyle boasts a roster of bipartisan Washington power figures. Its founding and still managing partner is David Rubenstein, a former top domestic policy advisor to Jimmy Carter. Among the firm's senior advisors is Thomas "Mack" McLarty, Bill Clinton's former White House chief of staff, and Arthur Levitt, Clinton's former chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. One of its other managing partners is William Kennard, Clinton's chairman of the Federal Communications Commission. Spokesman Ullman was the Clinton-era spokesman for the SEC.

As for the president's own Carlyle link, his service on the Caterair board ended when he quit to run for Texas governor?-a few months before the first of the Saudi contracts to the unrelated BDM firm was awarded. Moreover, says Ullman, Bush "didn't invest in the [Caterair] deal and he didn't profit from it." (The firm was a big money loser and was even cited by the campaign of Ann Richards, Bush's 1994 gubernatorial opponent, as evidence of what a lousy businessman he was.)

Most importantly, the movie fails to show any evidence that Bush White House actually has intervened in any way to promote the interests of the Carlyle Group. In fact, the one major Bush administration decision that most directly affected the company's interest was the cancellation of a $11 billion program for the Crusader rocket artillery system that had been developed for the U.S. Army (during the Clinton administration)?-a move that had been foreshadowed by Bush's own statements during the 2000 campaign saying he wanted a lighter and more mobile military. The Crusader was manufactured by United Defense, which had been wholly owned by Carlyle until it spun the company off in a public offering in October, 2001 (and profited to the tune of $237 million). Carlyle still owned 47 percent of the shares in the defense company at the time that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld?-in the face of stiff congressional resistance?-canceled the Crusader program the following year. These developments, like much else relevant to Carlyle, goes unmentioned in Moore's movie.

None of this is to suggest that there aren't legitimate questions that deserve to be asked about the influence that secretive firms like Carlyle have in Washington?-not to mention the Saudis themselves (an issue that has been taken up repeatedly in our weekly Terror Watch columns.) Nor are we trying to say that "Fahrenheit 9/11" isn't a powerful and effective movie that raises a host of legitimate issues about President Bush's response to the September 11 attacks, the climate of fear engendered by the war on terror and, most importantly, about the wisdom and horrific human toll of the war in Iraq.

But for all the reasonable points he makes, on more than a few occasions in the movie Moore twists and bends the available facts and makes glaring omissions in ways that end up clouding the serious political debate he wants to provoke.

Consider Moore's handling of another conspiratorial claim: the idea that oil-company interest in building a pipeline through Afghanistan influenced early Bush administration policy regarding the Taliban. Moore raises the issue by stringing together two unrelated events. The first is that a delegation of Taliban leaders flew to Houston, Texas, in 1997 ("while George W. Bush was governor of Texas," the movie helpfully points out) to meet with executives of Unocal, an oil company that was indeed interested in building a pipeline to carry natural gas from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan.

The second is that another Taliban emissary visited Washington in March, 2001 and got an audience at the State Department, leaving Moore to speculate that the Bush administration had gone soft on the protectors of Osama bin Laden because it was interested in promoting a pipeline deal. "Why on earth would the Bush administration allow a Taliban leader to visit the United States knowing that the Taliban were harboring the man who bombed the USS Cole and our African embassies?" Moore asks at one point.

This, as conspiracy theories go, is more than a stretch. Unocal's interest in building the Afghan pipeline is well documented. Indeed, according to "Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to Sept. 10., 2001," the critically acclaimed book by Washington Post managing editor Steve Coll, Unocal executives met repeatedly with Clinton administration officials throughout the late 1990s in an effort to promote the project?-in part by getting the U.S. government to take a more conciliatory approach to the Taliban. "It was an easy time for an American oil executive to find an audience in the Clinton White House," Coll writes on page 307 of his book. "At the White House, [Unocal lobbyist Marty Miller] met regularly with Sheila Heslin, the director of energy issues at the National Security Council, whose suite next to the West Wing coursed with visitors from American oil firms. Miller found Heslin…very supportive of Unocal's agenda in Afghanistan."

Coll never suggests that the Clintonites' interest in the Unocal project was because of the corrupting influence of big oil. Clinton National Security Council advisor "Berger, Heslin and their White House colleagues saw themselves engaged in a hardheaded synthesis of American commercial interests and national security goals," he writes. "They wanted to use the profit-making motives of American oil companies to thwart one of the country's most determined enemies, Iran, and to contain the longer-term ambitions of a restless Russia."

Whatever the motive, the Unocal pipeline project was entirely a Clinton-era proposal: By 1998, as the Taliban hardened its positions, the U.S. oil company pulled out of the deal. By the time George W. Bush took office, it was a dead issue?-and no longer the subject of any lobbying in Washington. (Vice President Dick Cheney's energy task force report in May, 2001, makes no reference to it.) There is no evidence that the Taliban envoy who visited Washington in March, 2001?-and met with State Department and National Security Council officials?-ever brought up the pipeline. Nor is there any evidence anybody in the Bush administration raised it with him. The envoy brought a letter to Bush offering negotiations to resolve the issue of what should be done with bin Laden. (A few weeks earlier, Taliban leader Mullah Omar had floated the idea of convening a tribunal of Islamic religious scholars to review the evidence against the Al Qaeda leader.) The Taliban offer was promptly shot down. "We have not seen from the Taliban a proposal that would meet the requirements of the U.N. resolution to hand over Osama bin Laden to a country where he can be brought to justice," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said at the time.

The use of innuendo is rife through other critical passages of "Fahrenheit 9/11." The movie makes much of the president's relationship with James R. Bath, a former member of his Texas Air National Guard who, like Bush, was suspended from flying at one point for failure to take a physical. The movie suggests that the White House blacked out a reference to Bath's missed physical from his National Guard records not because of legal concerns over the Privacy Act but because it was trying to conceal the Bath connection?-a presumed embarrassment because the Houston businessman had once been the U.S. money manager for the bin Laden family. After being hired by the bin Ladens to manager their money in Texas, Bath "in turn," the movie says, "invested in George W. Bush."

The investment in question is real: In the late 1970's, Bath put up $50,000 into Bush's Arbusto Energy, (one of a string of failed oil ventures by the president), giving Bath a 5 percent interest in the company. The implication seems to be that, years later, because of this link, Bush was somehow not as zealous about his determination to get bin Laden.

Leaving aside the fact that the bin Laden family, which runs one of Saudi Arabia's biggest construction firms, has never been linked to terrorism, the movie?-which relied heavily on Unger's book?-fails to note the author's conclusion about what to make of the supposed Bin Laden-Bath-Bush nexus: that it may not mean anything. The "Bush-Bin Laden ?'relationships' were indirect?-two degrees of separation, perhaps?-and at times have been overstated," Unger writes in his book. While critics have charged that bin Laden money found its way into Arbusto through Bath, Unger notes that "no hard evidence has ever been found to back up that charge" and Bath himself has adamantly denied it. "One hundred percent of those funds (in Arbusto) were mine," says Bath in a footnote on page 101 of Unger's book. "It was a purely personal investment."

The innuendo is greatest, of course, in Moore's dealings with the matter of the departing Saudis flown out of the United States in the days after the September 11 terror attacks. Much has already been written about these flights, especially the film's implication that figures with possible knowledge of the terrorist attacks were allowed to leave the country without adequate FBI screening?-a notion that has been essentially rejected by the 9/11 commission. The 9/11 commission found that the FBI screened the Saudi passengers, ran their names through federal databases, interviewed 30 of them and asked many of them "detailed questions." "Nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country," the commission stated. New information about a flight from Tampa, Florida late on Sept. 13 seems mostly a red herring: The flight didn't take any Saudis out of the United States. It was a domestic flight to Lexington, Kentucky that took place after the Tampa airport had already reopened. (You can read Unger's letter to Newsweek on this point, as well as our reply, by clicking here.)

It is true that there are still some in the FBI who had questions about the flights-and wish more care had been taken to examine the passengers. But the film's basic point?-that the flights represented perhaps the supreme example of the Saudi government's influence in the Bush White House-is almost impossible to defend. Why? Because while the film claims?-correctly?-that the "White House" approved the flights, it fails to note who exactly in the White House did so. It wasn't the president, or the vice president or anybody else supposedly corrupted by Saudi oil money. It was Richard Clarke, the counter-terrorism czar who was a holdover from the Clinton administration and who has since turned into a fierce Bush critic. Clarke has publicly testified that he gave the greenlight?-conditioned on FBI clearance.

"I thought the flights were correct," Clarke told ABC News last week. "The Saudis had reasonable fear that they might be the subject of vigilante attacks in the United States after 9/11. And there is no evidence even to this date that any of the people who left on those flights were people of interest to the FBI." Like much else relevant to the issues Moore raises, Clarke's reasons for approving the flights?-and his thoughts on them today?-won't be found in "Fahrenheit 9/11," nor in any of the ample material now being churned out by the film-maker's "war room" to defend his provocative, if flawed, movie.

© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 09:02 am
I assume you haven't read Moore rebuttal to Mr. Isikoff.

No, I don't protesteth too much. The Moore bashers protesteth too much from an irrational fear.

Summarilly dismissing the film as "reality fiction" and that Moore is an idiot without having seen the film is what is ridiculous. The mentality of those who review a film and all they have is "it's a piece of crap" has a lower IQ thirty points lower than GWB.

I suggest if you are going to review a film that you actually see it, not go by borrowed opinion and then do you own research, not rely on then highly questionable prattle going around the Internet. Do you also listen to rumors about you friends and take them to the letter? Isikoff saw the film and like every good journalist messed up some details.

This is a movie not the Gospel and even that can be disputed. Moore invites other opinions not some trivia gotcha game.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 11:34 am
Crag Unger's rebuttal to Isikoff:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/smackdown/index.php?id=3
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 01:23 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Summarilly dismissing the film as "reality fiction" and that Moore is an idiot without having seen the film is what is ridiculous.

Are you aware that Moore has published films and books before Fahrenheit 911, and that they provide at least some basis for answering the question au1929 asked in the title of his thread? If your answer is yes, this opens the theoretical possibility that some people have not seen Fahrenheit 911, are not idiots, but nevertheless do have an opinion about Moore. Whether you wish to consider this possibility is, of course, up to you.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 01:44 pm
Opinion should be based on experience not some blog raving on the Internet. I doubt that many of the people on these boards including those who want to throw out attacks like calling him an idiot haven't read those books or seen those films either. As it is now, this film is markedly superior to any previous efforts and he is more methodical in this film. If a writer, filmmaker or any artist doesn't grow in his chosen medium he might as well give up.


BTW, Moore never once calls Bush an idiot. Bush is quite content in displaying that himself.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 02:15 pm
LW, before you saw the film you had an opinion on it. And immediately after seeing it you segued into chiding anyone who had a negative (never chiding those with a positive) opinion of it if they hadn't seen it.

Lightwizard wrote:

BTW, Moore never once calls Bush an idiot. Bush is quite content in displaying that himself.



Moore on November 9, 2003 at the London Palladium:

    "[b]Bush is an idiot[/b] - what's Blair's excuse? What did Bush promise him, a gas station in Iraq?"
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2004 02:50 pm
Anyone know the term for someone who gets messages from God. Someone who believes he is never wrong even when the evidence proves him to be? I have seen people like that preaching on street corners.
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