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Does not helping equal punishing?

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Sky19
 
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 10:44 am
I heard in the news that some guy is suing a bar owner for discrimination because on certain nights, Ladies Nights, women get in for free while men must pay.
Here's a question: Would this guy think he had a case if the owner of the bar charged men and women the same cover, say $5.00, but he stood at the door on Ladies Night and gave every woman $5.00 before if they went in? That way the owner is not punishing the men, he is helping the women. What if I stood at the door and gave every woman $5.00 - would he try to force me to either give the money to men too or not give it to anybody? Is helping group A but not helping group B the same as punishing group B?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,801 • Replies: 20
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thehamster
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 10:59 am
I see a fundamental difference in helping someone and punishing that very same person.
But anyhow, what drove you to come up with this topic? It seems a little odd to me thinking about something like that.
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BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:14 am
Re: Does not helping equal punishing?
Sky19 wrote:
I heard in the news that some guy is suing a bar owner for discrimination because on certain nights, Ladies Nights, women get in for free while men must pay.
Here's a question: Would this guy think he had a case if the owner of the bar charged men and women the same cover, say $5.00, but he stood at the door on Ladies Night and gave every woman $5.00 before if they went in? That way the owner is not punishing the men, he is helping the women. What if I stood at the door and gave every woman $5.00 - would he try to force me to either give the money to men too or not give it to anybody? Is helping group A but not helping group B the same as punishing group B?


The complainant does have a legitimate complaint, however, i suspect the court would see the litigation as frivolous, and probably throw it out.
Charging both men and women, but then giving the women the price of admission is exactly the same thing, but simply more duplicitous.

In Canada charges of sexual (or any other) discrimination must be shown to cause 'harm' for the charge to be prosecuted.

In this case there is no harm apparent, as the men gain from having more women enter the bar, than would be the case if they were not 'subsidized' since the presence of 'men' is not considered as attractive to women, as the presence of women is to men (just an 'observation'!).
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:58 am
I am all in favor of letting the ladies in free. The more the merrier even if you have to be underhanded to do it!
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Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 12:14 pm
If he knew BEFORE he entered the bar and paid his $5 that women would be paying $0 that night, then he in essence agreed to the circumstances and is not being duped, discriminated against or unfairly treated. He had the choice not to enter the bar and not to pay $5.

If he found out AFTERWARDS that the ladies did not pay:
Did this affect his enjoyment of the environs?
I think not.
Did he get what he paid for?
Yes.
He's just being a jackass. Since he paid his five bucks he obviously thought that entering the bar was worth the price (or he wouldn't have paid it).
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 03:34 pm
Re: Does not helping equal punishing?
BoGoWo wrote:
The complainant does have a legitimate complaint, however, i suspect the court would see the litigation as frivolous, and probably throw it out.


Actually, the guy didn't sue. He filed a complaint with the NJ State Civil rights people and won. http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/strange/060304_ap_sn_ladiesnight.html


To the original question, the issue is that the law requires equeal accomodation at any business that is open to the general public. I suspect that charging everyone and then paying some back as they leave would run into the same problem (at least in NJ) - if the decision on who got their $5 back and who didn't was based on their sex. Legally, they can't discriminate based on sex, age, race/color, religion or national origin. They could discriminate based on hair or eye color though if they wanted to.
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Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 04:13 pm
So children getting into a place free or paying half price (not to the bar, but stuff in general) would be discrimination based on age?
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 04:56 pm
Could be! Senior citizen discounts too! Very Happy
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 05:39 pm
How about you get in for free if you are wearing a skirt and blouse? That's a choice not a genetically determined condition. That wounded soul could "suit up" for the night and enjoy his free evening. I think these attempt to be absolutely fair to everyone have gotten a little silly.
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Sky19
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 01:59 pm
…and this gets to my point. Am I (Sky19, not the bar owner - we'll get to the bar owner in a bit) discriminating against men if I give women $5.00? Before you answer, realize that if it is illegal discrimination then it is illegal for me, a private citizen, to give my money to the people I choose.

As somebody wrote…the result is the same whether the owner charges men only, or whether he charges both and gives women $5.00 back. But does the owners intent figure into this? That is, if he feels he is helping women, as opposed to hurting men, does that make a difference. Or, is helping women but not men the same as hurting (discriminating against) men?
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 03:33 pm
Sky19 wrote:
Before you answer, realize that if it is illegal discrimination then it is illegal for me, a private citizen, to give my money to the people I choose.


Not quite. The law prohbits discrimination when you are acting in a public capacity (i.e. a government official) in employement, when operating a place of public accomodation (resturant, bar, hotel, store, etc..) and in real estate transfers. It doesn't have any effect on the private activities of an individal acting in their own personal capacity.

Quote:
That is, if he feels he is helping women, as opposed to hurting men, does that make a difference. Or, is helping women but not men the same as hurting (discriminating against) men?


If you apply the existing racial/sexual discrimination rulings of the US Supreme Court what matters is the end result (which, in this case, would be unequeal treatment based on sex) regardless of the claimed intent.
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stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 04:34 pm
Discrimination is a natural part of society, regardless of each individual judges opinion.

I don't know all the specifics...other than it's legal to discriminate on certain things, and not on others...but since we do have differences, discrimination is not only inevitable but expected.

For instance, there are senior citizens...veterans...adults/children...men/women...new/regular customers...etc...and many of them deserved to be discriminated, in the form of discounts and stuff like that...not in the form of removing human rights.
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thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 03:11 pm
What if we expanded this to a more global level. We know that the AIDS Epidemic is wiping out Africa right now... If we do nothing to help... and we can help... are we in effect... harming?

TF
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 03:54 pm
More and more problems it seems could be solved with a good old fashion ass kicking.
0 Replies
 
Locke15
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 07:21 am
Price discrimination is nothing new, and I'm certain that he won't win his case if he did I might as well go to the nearest cinema, and dispute the fact that children get to pay less for tickets. Price discrimination is not against the law in its avergae form.
0 Replies
 
Eamonn Keane
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 04:51 pm
This is rather like the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard:

3 men started working in a vineyard at 6:00am. Th owner promised them a denarius for the day's work - this was the standard wage for a labourer.

The owner then decided that 3 men wasn't enough, so he hired 3 more men who started work at 10:00am.
Then the owner then decided that 6 men wasn't enough either, so he hired 3 more men who started work at 2:00pm.

At 6:00pm, all the grapes were picked. The owner paid those who began at 2:00pm one denarius. Those who started at 10:00am also got one denarius. Those who began at 6:00am also got one denarius.


The main part of this story is this: Was the owner treating the men who began at 6am unfairly? Those who worked less than they had got paid the same, but the men who started at 6am still got what was considered a fair day's wage. Does it matter to them how much others got paid?
0 Replies
 
fortune
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 05:37 pm
workers in the vineyard and more
Hmmm, thank God for hourly rates!

Okay well, the guys had to pay $5.00, the ladies got in for free. Who was harmed by this? Right, no one. The guy who filed the complaint was just being a whiner. You can theorize about the rights and wrongs of this 'till the cows get home. It's a very small matter. The definition of petty.

The question posed, however, is one which becomes important on a larger scale. Is it right to say that withholding aid or priveliges constitutes persecution? It all depends on the value of the aid in consideration. A $5 entry fee is not something which anyone could say is important (except perhaps to the bar owner). The $5 dollars you had hidden in your pocket that time when some homeless person came begging for money to eat is important.

It is NOT fair that the guys had to pay when the gals didn't. But then to expect every aspect of life to be fair is unreasonable. Life is more complicated than that. However to refuse to render reasonable aid is a damnable thing. Is it persecution to hold just out of reach the thing which might alleviate suffering? Like a person holding a glass of water just out of the reach of a man dying of dehydration, that is a persecution. Not allowing some guy to get away with not paying the cover charge when others did is just annoying (and a little mean).
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 07:25 pm
Another case along a similar line:

A group of disabled (wheelchair bound I believe) sued a movie theater for not providing handicapped accessible access to upper seats in theaters with stadium seating.

They won at the US Appeals Court level and the USSC refused to hear further appeals so, as it stands, they've won.
( http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/28/scotus.disabled.ap/index.html if you are intereste din reading..)

Is it discrimination if someone isn't provided the seating of their choice? Should disabled movie-goers get to pick and choose where reserved seating has to be setup?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 07:26 pm
Locke15 wrote:
Price discrimination is nothing new, and I'm certain that he won't win his case if he did I might as well go to the nearest cinema, and dispute the fact that children get to pay less for tickets. Price discrimination is not against the law in its avergae form.


Umm.. Don't be so certian. Read up. He already won. Wink
0 Replies
 
nn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2004 01:38 pm
i don't think you know the meaning of discrimination, look it up, a five year old can ans. your ques.
0 Replies
 
 

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