1
   

Memory, identity, and responsibility

 
 
Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 09:46 am
Quote:
Felon is in the same position as a member of the jury: he only knows of the crime second-hand. Given that fact, is it fair to convict him?


I believe it is. You've made it clear that this planned and deliberate murder was not complicated by psychological fugue or other impairment. While his present state of amnesia, permanent as it may be, might factor into sentencing, I fail to see how it alters the events of the murder itself. Conviction seems inevitable.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 09:57 am
Joeblow wrote:
While his present state of amnesia, permanent as it may be, might factor into sentencing, I fail to see how it alters the events of the murder itself. Conviction seems inevitable.


As an aside, if there had been a sucessful brain transplant in between the time of the crime and the arrest instead of amnesia, would you still feel that the "person" that committed the crime should be tried and imprisioned? (This isn't a perfect analogy but it is close to the amnesia situation. Just interested in the subtle difference and how it is perceived.)
0 Replies
 
Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 10:15 am
fishin' yer killing me.

Hmmm.

Brain transplant....

I do believe that's another hundred dollars entirely.
0 Replies
 
Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:01 am
If there is no consequence to criminal acts then what is the point in trying to maintain a society? Must we always examine and probe and weigh and evaluate every single iota? Why can't the criminal just get punished for what he has done? Is it better to give society the release to go back to the eye-for-an-eye mentality? Let chaos rule instead?

I am more inclined to believe that punishment by law is first and foremost most aligned as a form of retribution, at least in my mind it should be. The other four permissable reasons are to make one cozy or feel more justified with doing so.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:27 am
cavfancier wrote:
So the amnesia did happen after the crime, and before the arrest. Okay. The cause of the amnesia could indeed influence the outcome of the trial, and might help the defence.

That may very well be true, but then that's beside the point. The question isn't whether Felon will be convicted, but whether he should be convicted.

cavfancier wrote:
For argument's sake, say the police gave him a beating on his head for resisting arrest, resulting in post traumatic amnesia. According the the example cited here, he would have a strong case for dismissal of the charges.

I sincerely doubt it. At most, it would affect the admissibility of certain kinds of evidence. But police misconduct, by itself, shouldn't influence Felon's own guilt or innocence.

cavfancier wrote:
However, if there was no trauma involved, and the amnesia came on after the crime, and before the arrest, I still think he should be held responsible.

Whether Felon was beaten by police, or slipped on a banana peel, or was struck by lightning, from Felon's perspective it's all the same. In all those cases, Felon is not responsible for his amnesiac condition.

cavfancier wrote:
I don't see an ethical problem with locking this murderer up just because he claims he "can't remember." With proper psychotherapy, amnesiacs can be regressed, and they will indeed recover buried memories. That can be done in a prison hospital.

I freely admit that I am no expert on amnesia or brain disorders or medicine in general. I am positing what may be referred to as "soap opera amnesia" -- i.e. the kind of amnesia that only affects memories of events before a certain point (Felon, we can presume, still remembers how to speak and walk and otherwise function in society). This kind of amnesia is resistant to all forms of treatment that don't involve the shocking discovery of an evil twin.

cavfancier wrote:
As for a conviction based on an assumption of future acts of violence, I don't see how that plays into this at all. I don't accept that rehabilitation is necessarily based on a perception of future acts. I think most therapists would concede that the main issue is dealing with the problem at hand, not the weird future that only a magic crystal ball can predict.

If rehabilitation is not based on a perception that the convict is inclined to commit future bad acts, then rehabilitation is meaningless.
0 Replies
 
BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:45 am
I suggest the "King Solomon" approach;

Have JQF decide upon his own punishment; if he is truly a reformed personality after the amnesia, he will feel guilt, and chose punishment; however if he is not reformed, and feels no guilt he will choose to be freed, demonstrating his continued danger to society.

So either way, lock the bugger up; done!

[doesn't sound quite so 'biblical" though, does it? Rolling Eyes ]
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:49 am
joefromchicago wrote:
Felon views his previous actions as he would those of a complete stranger. Under that circumstance, is it equitable to hold him responsible if he has no memory of the event, no knowledge of the crime, no genuine feeling of guilt, and no possibility of true remorse?


Yes, it is fair to convict him. He may not remember committing the crime, but he knows that he did so from the incontrovertible evidence presented to him, the gap in his memory, and his own knowledge that he is the kind of person who would commit murder in those circumstances. His lack of remorse is disturbing for two reasons: a normal person would feel sorry for the harm they caused even if they did not remember the act, and the experience of guilt is a necessary part of the atonement to society.

On the question of whether he is now the same person who committed the crime, of course he is a different person today than he was yesterday, but so are we all. The self, ego, extended consciousness (or whatever you call the awareness of personhood) relies on memories as well as chemistry. As our memories change, we change. I am not the same person I was last year, but I am still responsible for the consequences of my previous actions. Would we release a convicted murderer from prison who was now a "different person" because they had a religious conversion?
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:50 am
Suppose that while premeditating this heinous crime, Felon realized that he could escape conviction by going to an expert hypnotist afterward and have his conscious memory of the crime, the events leading up to it, and the hypnosis suppressed - to the extent that all medical experts would agree that he had no memory of it.

If he were absolved of the crime, others would follow suit and escape retribution.

Executing someone or locking them up for life serves three purposes. Obviously it prevents them from committing future crimes. It deters some other people from committing crimes out of fear of suffering the same punishment, just or otherwise. But more importantly it satisfies our need for retribution. A legal "right to life" does not protect anyone from wrongful death; it can only guarantee our commitment to avenge killings. It tells every member of society that murder will not be tolerated, and that we will make every effort to hunt down and lawfully punish those who breach the social contract. Trust in the system is lost if the general public perceives that people guilty of murder can evade justice with flimsy defenses such as PMS, police misconduct, bad childhood, legal technicalities, alleged insanity, or amnesia.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:51 am
No evil twin? Dang, there goes my next theory.

I understand what you are saying regarding rehabilitation, but your last comment still seems like a rather blanket statement. It depends on what sort of therapy is involved.

I still don't see a problem with having him committed to a hospital in lieu of a prison sentence, should we decide he is not legally responsible for his actions.
0 Replies
 
Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 11:55 am
Makes sense to me! What Terry said.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 02:05 pm
Terry took the words right outta my mouth.
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Relative
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 02:15 pm
Terry :
Quote:
But more importantly it satisfies our need for retribution. .. It tells every member of society that murder will not be tolerated, and that we will make every effort to hunt down and lawfully punish those who breach the social contract


Terry, you are confused. What you speak about in second statement is NOT retribution, it is deterrence. Retribution is 'payback', getting pleasure from hurting another person under cover of an excuse.

I will not sit still in presence of retribution.

otherwise, I agree with your thinking. Furthermore, a total amnesia would mean a death of a person. Erasing just some factual memories is nothing - the capability for killing is hidden much deeper than that.

Relative.
0 Replies
 
gordy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 02:23 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
gordy wrote:
The memory thing is a bit of a distraction in my opinion.Even if he is a totaly changed man and will never commit another crime doesn't come into it.Remember he committed murder.Justice must be served.

What kind of "justice" is it when the state convicts someone of a crime for which the condemned has no knowledge?

gordy wrote:
He murdered,he wanted to murder. the man is guilty,send him down.Next case

The man is guilty? Which man?


The state has no choice in the matter.Remember this man took the life of another Human.
If Mr Felon has no knowledge of his crime then thats his medicial problem. we're talking pre mediciated murder and Mr Felon did it knowing full well what would be the outcome if he was caught.His current mental condition has nothing to do with it.
If when he committed murder he was of sound mind.Mr Felon has no defence

And if where Mr Felon committed murder has the death penalty then thats too bad for Mr Felon

The law is the law and justice must be seen to be done
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 09:24 am
Terry wrote:
Suppose that while premeditating this heinous crime, Felon realized that he could escape conviction by going to an expert hypnotist afterward and have his conscious memory of the crime, the events leading up to it, and the hypnosis suppressed - to the extent that all medical experts would agree that he had no memory of it.

If he were absolved of the crime, others would follow suit and escape retribution.

I admit that I had not taken into account the possibility that Felon had intentionally caused his own amnesia. I'm not altogether convinced that this should make any difference, but I understand your point.

Suppose society enacted a rule that stated: a person will not be held responsible for any crime that he commits, as long as his memory of that crime (along with all other contemporaneous or previous events) is permanently erased. I suppose that very few people would take advantage of that rule, not simply because most people are law-abiding, but because there's not much point in committing a crime for certain purposes (e.g. killing one's most hated rival) if one is fated to forget the crime, the purposes, and the rivalry. Nevertheless, as legislators (and we may assume those roles for the purposes of addressing this hypothetical) should be concerned with what can happen just as much as what will happen, I concede that it is theoretically possible a person would willingly forfeit his memory for the chance to commit a particular crime.

Nevertheless, I'm not convinced that convicting Felon under the facts of your hypothetical (where he willingly undergoes memory-loss) would necessarily contradict the connection that I am positing between memory and responsibility. As I have mentioned before, a person may be convicted today of a crime that he cannot remember (e.g. a person in a drug-induced haze commits murder) if the jury concludes that he was, in some sense, responsible for his memory-losing state. And that's not because the state concludes that there is no connection between memory and responsibility, but because the state has made a public policy decision that it should not encourage others to engage in the same kind of reckless behavior. Thus, we may convict the willingly amnesiac Felon in your hypothetical, not because we place no importance on the role of memory, but because we place more importance on the role of public order.

That, however, does not resolve the case where Felon's memory loss was not of his own doing. Certainly, we can convict the willingly amnesiac Felon because we can assert that Felon was, at a certain point, responsible for his actions, and that those actions had a causative relationship with the crime. But for the unwillingly amnesiac Felon, the causative link is not present. There could, therefore, be no public policy argument to be made for convicting Felon where there is no chance that Felon's case would serve as a bad example for others to follow.

Terry wrote:
Executing someone or locking them up for life serves three purposes. Obviously it prevents them from committing future crimes. It deters some other people from committing crimes out of fear of suffering the same punishment, just or otherwise. But more importantly it satisfies our need for retribution.

These are all factors that I have previously noted. I have already dealt briefly with the arguments regarding incapacitation and deterrence, but perhaps these deserve a bit more analysis.

If we lock up Felon in order to prevent him from committing future crimes, then we have made the decision, at least implicitly, that there is something about Felon's character that would incline him to commit future crimes. After all, if we had no reason to believe that he would ever again commit a crime, there are punishments short of incarceration that would be sufficient to demonstrate society's disapproval of the crime. Yet the determination that Felon poses a continuing danger posits that Felon pre-amnesia will resemble Felon post-amnesia. Given that the two Felons are, in effect, strangers to one another, I'm not sure that this case can be made.

Likewise, the amnesiac Felon seems like a rather poor example of deterrence to be held up to the community of would-be murderers. To be sure, the state could, with justification, say that Felon was undoubtedly guilty and therefore should serve his sentence, but the sorts of things that we want from convicted felons -- guilt, remorse, contrition, repentence -- would be utterly incomprehensible to Felon, who cannot feel genuine guilt for something that he cannot recall doing (at most, he could feel a sort of empathetic remorse for the actions of his pre-amnesiac self). As such, Felon is similar to someone with a diminished mental capacity, like a person with severe mental retardation, who commits a crime that he is incapable of understanding. Since executing or imprisoning the severely retarded doesn't really accomplish the goal of deterrence, how would the execution or imprisonment of Felon accomplish that goal?

Terry wrote:
A legal "right to life" does not protect anyone from wrongful death; it can only guarantee our commitment to avenge killings. It tells every member of society that murder will not be tolerated, and that we will make every effort to hunt down and lawfully punish those who breach the social contract. Trust in the system is lost if the general public perceives that people guilty of murder can evade justice with flimsy defenses such as PMS, police misconduct, bad childhood, legal technicalities, alleged insanity, or amnesia.

Per my hypothetical, Felon's amnesia is not a "flimsy defense." It is a profound, permanent, irreversible medical condition. And this still leaves open the question: if we punish Felon as a means of retribution, are we punishing the right Felon?
0 Replies
 
Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:15 am
joefromchicago wrote:
To be sure, the state could, with justification, say that Felon was undoubtedly guilty and therefore should serve his sentence


Yes.

Quote:
but the sorts of things that we want from convicted felons -- guilt, remorse, contrition, repentence -- would be utterly incomprehensible to Felon, who cannot feel genuine guilt for something that he cannot recall doing (at most, he could feel a sort of empathetic remorse for the actions of his pre-amnesiac self).


Why would it be utterly incomprehensible to Felon? Why must we presume he cannot feel genuine remorse or, if we must presume this, why must we presume that an empathic remorseful response is inadequate?

Further, what if he had all of his memories intact and was not the least remorseful and never would be?

Quote:
As such, Felon is similar to someone with a diminished mental capacity, like a person with severe mental retardation, who commits a crime that he is incapable of understanding.


No. Your scenario doesn't allow us to draw this conclusion. He is capable of understanding the nature of his offence he just doesn't remember it.


Quote:
Per my hypothetical, Felon's amnesia is not a "flimsy defense."


Yes it is. How is "I forget" a defense by any definition?

Quote:
It is a profound, permanent, irreversible medical condition.


Yes.

Quote:
And this still leaves open the question: if we punish Felon as a means of retribution, are we punishing the right Felon?


Do you really think so?
0 Replies
 
kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:36 am
Bookmark.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 11:36 am
Joeblow wrote:
Why would it be utterly incomprehensible to Felon? Why must we presume he cannot feel genuine remorse or, if we must presume this, why must we presume that an empathic remorseful response is inadequate?

Suppose that a total stranger came up to you today, punched you in the face, and, as you lay prostrate on the ground, said: "that's for what you did to me, you bastard!" I suppose you'd think that the stranger had simply mistaken you for someone else. But then suppose that several witnesses come up to you and say, in effect: "yeah, after what you did to that guy, you deserved to get punched in the face." How much convincing will you need, from independent witnesses, before you believe that you had wronged that stranger? And how much evidence will it take before you feel genuinely remorseful for the wrong that everyone says you committed?

Joeblow wrote:
Further, what if he had all of his memories intact and was not the least remorseful and never would be?

Then he would at least have first-hand knowledge of his own actions.

Joeblow wrote:
No. Your scenario doesn't allow us to draw this conclusion. He is capable of understanding the nature of his offence he just doesn't remember it.

Certainly he is capable of understanding the nature of that offense, he just isn't capable of understanding that it is his offense.

Joeblow wrote:
Yes it is. How is "I forget" a defense by any definition?

When the person is incapable of remembering.

Joeblow wrote:
Quote:
And this still leaves open the question: if we punish Felon as a means of retribution, are we punishing the right Felon?


Do you really think so?

That is what we're attempting to establish.
0 Replies
 
Joeblow
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 05:58 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Joeblow wrote:
Why would it be utterly incomprehensible to Felon? Why must we presume he cannot feel genuine remorse or, if we must presume this, why must we presume that an empathic remorseful response is inadequate?

Suppose that a total stranger came up to you today, punched you in the face, and, as you lay prostrate on the ground, said: "that's for what you did to me, you bastard!" I suppose you'd think that the stranger had simply mistaken you for someone else. But then suppose that several witnesses come up to you and say, in effect: "yeah, after what you did to that guy, you deserved to get punched in the face." How much convincing will you need, from independent witnesses, before you believe that you had wronged that stranger? And how much evidence will it take before you feel genuinely remorseful for the wrong that everyone says you committed?


Vigilante justice. Hmmm. O.k. I guess I'd require that incontrovertible evidence you talked about in your original hypothetical. Faced with that, I'd feel guilt or remorse…or not! Who knows? Perhaps I'd have some enjoyment in charging the aggressor with assault.

Quote:
Joeblow wrote:
Further, what if he had all of his memories intact and was not the least remorseful and never would be?

Then he would at least have first-hand knowledge of his own actions.


So what? How is this relevant?


Quote:
Joeblow wrote:
No. Your scenario doesn't allow us to draw this conclusion. He is capable of understanding the nature of his offence he just doesn't remember it.

Certainly he is capable of understanding the nature of that offense, he just isn't capable of understanding that it is his offense.


No. He understands it very well. We've proven it to ourselves and to him…incontrovertible…remember? (heh)




Quote:
Joeblow wrote:
How is "I forget" a defense by any definition?

When the person is incapable of remembering.


Since when?

Quote:
Joeblow wrote:
Quote:
And this still leaves open the question: if we punish Felon as a means of retribution, are we punishing the right Felon?


Do you really think so?

That is what we're attempting to establish.


I take that as a no.


Smile
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 06:22 pm
Guilty as charged; let the jury decide the penalty.
0 Replies
 
rufio
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:19 pm
If a person isn't a sum of their memories, they're nothing but unpurposeful matter. Effectively, when Felon loses his memory, he has died and been reborn into the same body. Even if Felon was someone like a serial killer who needed to be prevented from committing future crimes, everything that made him what he was was in his memories and thus can't cause him to commit crimes in the future. If you're suggesting that he doesn't entirely forget everything or still carries some baggage or tendencies from his life as a murderer though, that's different.
0 Replies
 
 

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