4
   

Global warming overblown?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 12:51 pm
Steve, in answer to your question, I don't know what to think about global warming. But everytime I trace a scientific opinion that global warming is an absolute fact and it is human activity that is causing it, it is written by somebody who's funding seems to depend on this being a fact.

When I read scientific opinions written by those who don't HAVE to find a problem with global warming, they don't. The most damning evidence they put out there is that the computer models 'proving' global warming can't produce current results when known data is plugged into them; therefore, their projections have to be at least somewhat suspect.

Why do I care? Because I want to know whether I hurt anybody by owning an SUV. I don't want to pay a lot of unnecessary taxes or give up freedoms or quality of life for erroneous assumptions.

If we are causing global warming, then by all means lets do something about it. If we aren't a significant factor in it, then let's quit worrying about it and put our efforts and energies into projects that will make the world better.

I resist policy being adopted because there MIGHT be a problem.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 01:10 pm
I'm gettin' me one a them cottages in North Ontario, just in case . . .
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neil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 04:06 pm
Hi steve: what do the letters LENR stand for?
Fox likely meant hydrogen which can be made from coke and steam. If the coke is made from low grade coal, lots of nasty pollutants are produced, but at high cost can be kept out of our envirornment. Neil
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neil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 04:27 pm
Hi Fox: I agree our dependence on computer modeling is scarry, especially when there are clues that the data input and model assumptions are wrong.
Scientists who are sure of their conclusions are also scarry.
An SUV, or Hummer may not heat our planet significantly, but it does produce twice the pollutants per passenger mile of most other kinds of human transportation. Also playing dodgecar on our highways an SUV is cheating as it puts small cars that pollute less at higher risk for death or injury of the small car passengers. Also the risk of World War Three over oil may be increased by every SUV and Hummer. More pressure now on the near East over oil may reduce the chance of WW3. It could go either way. Neil
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bromeliad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 07:55 pm
Quote:
Conservatives and liberals both agree that science is crucially important for making public policy. But the answers provided by scientific research are rarely certain and always open to disputation or challenge. When conservatives today call for "sound science," the evidence suggests that what they really want is to hold a scientific filibuster - and thereby delay political action.


http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=100
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bromeliad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 08:01 pm
http://www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/abuses/
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Col Man
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jun, 2004 08:41 pm
dunno where im going... but its sure gonna be a high place, far away from people Wink and seas Smile
i reckon GW's real... as for the cause... let the scientists decide its their job
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 10:24 am
Bromeliad, the first link you provided gives a good argument for the liberal side. You understand I could post several essays from scientists with very good credentials who would blow holes in that thesis but I don't want this to be a liberal/conservative issue if we can avoid that.
The second link to a paranormal research site? Are we putting this in the paranormal category now?

And Neil, you are serious that a Suburban or Hummer is a factor in global war?

As for the gas fueled cars, I'm almost certain my son mentioned the research into Helium fueled cars, not Hydrogen. But I will ask him to clarify.
Whichever, he showed how the process of producing such fuels would be far more environmentally dirty than any emissions from fuels currently in use.

Does anyone think my SUV that carries 6 passengers in relative comfort has more environmental impact than the two Honda Civics that would be necessary to transport the same number of people and/or cargo?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 10:30 am
Fox, I'm sure you always carry six passengers with you when you drive your SUV.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 10:49 am
Nope. Actually I don't have an SUV - I drive a Subaru Impreza Outback. But if I need to transport more than two other people, we have to use the big car and if more than three or four other people, we usually take two cars. I think it's all relative. Use a little car to get to and from work, etc. Use a big vehicle to transport a lot of folks or stuff.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 12:10 pm
Thanks for your reply foxfyre.

Global warming is a reality. It is anthropogenic...that is as a result of human activity. And there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, except to build sea defences and perhaps stock up on tinned food.

So keep driving the SUV, it makes no difference. What's coming is coming.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 12:54 pm
And I'll be long gone from this reality.
bromeliad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 01:05 pm
This if from an article by Chris Mooney, a regular contributor to the online version of the Skeptical Inquirer, a publication devoted the promotion of a rational and scientific worldview.

Quote:

In early 2001, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), a body comprised of over 2,500 scientists that's the world's leading authority on global warming, released its third major assessment of the issue. The IPCC concluded that humans are responsible for global warming and that this poses serious future risks. Now, for obvious reasons, this report posed a problem for the Bush administration, which quickly sought a review of the IPCC's findings by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS). Given the IPCC's lengthy and thorough process, this seemed a rather redundant effort to many. Sure enough, the NAS panel quickly confirmed the IPCC findings, adding still more force to the weight of scientific consensus.

Given this, anyone wishing to challenge the heavily reviewed conclusions of the IPCC and NAS has to overcome a rather staggering burden of proof. That's not to say it can't be done. But for the moment, it hasn't, which means that adopting a skeptical stance towards climate change in the face of overwhelming scientific consensus can hardly be considered the most defensible position. Instead, I would hazard, it amounts to an abuse of skepticism.

...



The reason we're so vulnerable to abuses of skepticism is that it's extremely hard to ever say that scientific conclusions are absolutely certain--much less to label scientific dissent a bad thing. After all, it's certainly possible that 2,500 IPCC scientists might have made the same mistake. And if so, we would want someone to point that out. Still, the prevailing view on climate change has gone through repeated challenges in the court of scientific opinion and emerged in its current form. If we really wish to discard this consensus position, then in some sense we're opting to discard the scientific process itself.

And that, finally, points to a way of determining when skepticism has gone too far and outlived its usefulness. In order to be responsible and useful, skepticism must respect the basic scientific process, rather than seeking to undermine it. It's one thing to doubt. But it's something else altogether to undermine the best mechanism we have at our disposal for knowing anything.


http://www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/abuses/
0 Replies
 
bromeliad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 01:13 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Thanks for your reply foxfyre.

Global warming is a reality. It is anthropogenic...that is as a result of human activity. And there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, except to build sea defences and perhaps stock up on tinned food.

So keep driving the SUV, it makes no difference. What's coming is coming.


Perhaps.

Or perhaps we could put some serious effort into fusion power (say, instead of some more dubious 'scientific' endeavours, such as a manned trip to Mars).

Maybe high-temperature superconductors?

An overall effort to engineer better efficiency into every single machine we
use?

More science, less laziness - and perhaps our kids will live almost as comfortably as we do now.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 05:05 pm
Do you consider the "Skeptical Inquiror" to be reliable for credible information? Do you know who funds it? Do they always include reliable sources for the information? I thought they were essentially a site for discussion of the paranormal.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 06:49 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Do you consider the "Skeptical Inquiror" to be reliable for credible information? Do you know who funds it? Do they always include reliable sources for the information? I thought they were essentially a site for discussion of the paranormal.


Hi Fox,

I consider _Skeptical Inquiror_ to be a fairly reputable source of information. However, I don't consider any single source of information to be completely reliable however. In cases where I suspect something to be amiss with the information I'm getting, I'll usually hunt down several reputable sources (particularly colleges .edu sites), and compare their opinions to see if I can understand where they differ on a subject.

The Skeptical Inquiror site is here: http://www.csicop.org/si They have a section which describes who they are and what their main goal is.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 09:08 pm
Yes, I've read through a good deal of Skeptical Inquiror's website Ros. And I remain unconvinced.

In the issue of global warming there are such compelling arguments for both sides that one does have to wonder. But I still say the reasonable choice is to go with those scientists who do not NEED for there to be global warming in order to come to that conclusion.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 09:15 pm
I look at global warming from a different perspective than Fox. IMHO that there really isn't enough long term data to determine whether this global warming or ice age is influenced by humans. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with developing and producing energy sources that relies less on fossil fuels. If it's another cycle of warming and freezing, there's nothing much humans can do. Putting resources into trying to determine whether this is a human caused global warming is moot; it's better to put those resources into R&D to find other energy sources.
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neil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 03:32 am
Hi Fox: I'm serious about the connection to WW3 and oil, but I edited my post to reflect that there are multiple ways this could playout. Neil
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neil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 03:50 am
Hi Bromlaid: Very good suggestions except we may already be funding Hot Fusion sufficiently. Cheap high (or even licquid nitrogen) temperature super conductors could cut carbon dioxide emissions, and other polutants by 10%.
Some appliences/machines are about as efficient as we can make them, but we can likely increase the the useful life of average appliences etc by ten times at only double the inital cost. That would cut future polution by perhaps half. Any idea how to get manufactures to make stuff that lasts longer? Offer special paperwork exemptions to companies (especially tiny independent companies) that demonstate long useful life for their products? Neil
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