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A good word for victim blaming before there's a victim?

 
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 02:42 pm
Basically the person I'm having a disagreement with thinks it's alright to advise women on the kind of clothing they wear to help avoid rape. I see this as a sort of pre-victim blaming, but I can't think of the proper word(s) to use to describe it as such.

Hopefully I'm not alone here on thinking that that kind of advice is pretty shitty.
 
contrex
 
  4  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 02:55 pm
I agree with you. Also, who does this guy think he is, "advising" women what to wear?
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 03:02 pm
@contrex,
When I traveled to Northern Mexico, I was given advice on what I shouldn't wear to avoid violent crime. The advice included that I shouldn't wear flashy jewelry or expensive clothing.

This advice is sometimes given even to people in American cities. I think that this is pretty good advice.
TheCaptain
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 03:04 pm
@contrex,
I don't know, going by the screen name I actually think it's a woman, but she thinks that giving that kind of advice isn't victim blaming, which I guess "technically" it's not because there isn't a victim yet, but obviously if someone thinks that clothing choices dictate a greater chance for rape, then chances are the things they would say (or at least think) about the victim's clothing choice after a rape occurred would equate to victim blaming. I just can't think of a good word that would describe what that is.

I already told her how stupid that advice is because it's not accurate, so I'm past that point.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 03:08 pm
@TheCaptain,
It's called victim blaming. Doesn't only apply after an assault.
TheCaptain
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 03:14 pm
@maxdancona,
I can see giving advice on not wearing fancier clothing to avoid being robbed/mugged, because muggers are obviously after money, so it makes sense to rob someone who looks wealthy, but rapists don't appear to work the same way according to statistics. People ranging from just days old to well in their 90's have been raped, so obviously looks don't always come into play. Studies have shown that most rapists don't even remember what their victim was wearing.
TheCaptain
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 03:15 pm
@ehBeth,
I know, I'm just trying to be as literal as possible, I wanna go Rain Man on her.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 03:39 pm
@TheCaptain,
That doesn't make sense. You can make the same argument about mugging... people in their 90's have also been mugged.

There is a scientific question here; is a person dressed provocatively is more likely to get raped then someone dressed conservatively. I did a little searching and was unable to find any credible unbiased scientific research on the topic (although there is a lot of propaganda on the issue).

But is really doesn't matter. What matters is that this person is trying to do what he or she believed is right.

If a person suggest how he or she thinks you might be safer from crime, this isn't a particularly awful thing to do. This is a well-meaning person trying to be helpful.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 04:08 pm
A question for anyone.

Is there any crime other than rape that you feel this way?

We give people all kinds of advice on how to avoid crime. We are told to change our passwords regularly, not to walk in dangerous neighborhoods after dark. We tell our kids not to talk to strangers. We are told to shred our mail and lock our doors.

Sometimes I might disagree about the advice I am being given, but I always appreciate the concern someone is showing.

0 Replies
 
TheCaptain
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 08:04 pm
@maxdancona,
The reasons why people rape and rob don't correlate together to make the kind of comparison you just did. Each individual action are different from each other. There might be a few similarities they both look for in a victim, like weakness, but their endgame is in no way comparable.

Someone might want to mug a 90 year old woman wearing expensive clothing because they're put under the impression that she has a lot of money, but a 90 year old woman isn't going to be raped because she's dressed provocatively, as 90 year old women usually don't dress provocatively or in any fashion that's sexually "inviting".

Alternatively, no one is going to mug a toddler because they usually don't have any money. But unfortunately, people have and will continue to rape them, and I doubt anyone can think of a single toddler who has been raped because of the way they were dressed.

As a side note, I'm in no way saying that people getting mugged are to blame either, I'm just saying I can see why a mugger would prefer to rob someone who looks wealthy over someone who looks poor. A rapist's reasons for choosing his victims vary.

It's okay that you couldn't find anything on the subject, I already have one.

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1109&context=djglp
___
While people perceive dress to have an impact on who is assaulted, studies of rapists suggest that victim attire is not a significant factor. Instead, rapists look for signs of passiveness and submissiveness, which, studies suggest, are more likely to coincide with more body-concealing clothing. In a study to test whether males could determine whether women were high or low in passiveness and submissiveness, Richards and her colleagues found that men, using only nonverbal appearance cues, could accurately assess which women were passive and submissive versus those who were dominant and assertive. Clothing was one of the key cues: "Those females high in passivity and submissiveness (i.e., those at greatest risk for victimization) wore noticeably more body-concealing clothing (i.e., high necklines, long pants and sleeves, multiple layers)." This suggests that men equate body-concealing clothing with passive and submissive qualities, which are qualities that rapists look for in victims. Thus, those who wore provocative clothes would not be viewed as passive or submissive, and would be less likely to be victims of assault.

Along these lines, research suggests that rape victims are “significantly
lower” in “dominance, assertiveness, and social presence.”While members of
the public believe that victims of assault attract such attacks by dressing
provocatively, attractiveness does not correlate with submissive characteristics in victims. Instead, research “specifically revealed a negative relationship between perceptions of attractiveness and traits which could be construed as contributing to a nonverbal appearance of vulnerability.” Thus:

Male evaluators perceived attractive females as lower in submissiveness,
uncertainty, simpleness, carelessness and passivity than their less attractive
peers. This suggests that conventional definitions of physical attractiveness do not represent visual attributes which enhance a woman’s potential for
victimization.
___

So in a sense, this is almost saying that dressing like an Amish woman poses a greater risk than dressing like a hooker. Personally, I'd rather not try to influence the way a woman dresses and stick with things that are actually known to help prevent rape.

I can see how the intent isn't particularly awful. If it's not accurate, though, then it's pretty much useless. Giving someone a false sense of security does zero good. And for those who don't follow that advice and end up falling victim, then there's a chance that they could end up blaming themselves for it, which is definitely awful.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 08:16 pm
@TheCaptain,
Quote:
Along these lines, research suggests that rape victims are “significantly
lower” in “dominance, assertiveness, and social presence.”While members of
the public believe that victims of assault attract such attacks by dressing
provocatively, attractiveness does not correlate with submissive characteristics in victims. Instead, research “specifically revealed a negative relationship between perceptions of attractiveness and traits which could be construed as contributing to a nonverbal appearance of vulnerability.” Thus:


That's interesting.

This seems to indicate that how a woman dresses can influence her likelihood of being raped. The only disagreement is what type of clothing a woman should used to limit her likelihood of being a victim.

So if instead of telling women they shouldn't dress "provocatively" your friend told women the shouldn't dress "submissively"... that would presumably be more helpful? This would at least be in agreement with the facts as we now understand them.



ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 08:16 pm
I do not trust any of you.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 08:43 pm
@TheCaptain,
TheCaptain wrote:

So in a sense, this is almost saying that dressing like an Amish woman poses a greater risk than dressing like a hooker.


it's talking about perceived power and perceived vulnerability

hookers are perceived to be vulnerable - without supportive resources etc

they're at high risk for assault of all sorts

If you've taken any personal protection/ self defense programs, there is pretty much always discussion of holding your head high, looking strong, looking alert, being aware of what is going on around you, looking directly at people around you. Being strong (physically and emotionally) and appearing to be strong are considered to be assault disincentives.


________

http://seniors.lovetoknow.com/Self_Defense_for_Seniors

Quote:
The concept of self defense for seniors deals more with not showing fear than with ways to body-slam someone to the pavement. Strength to protect oneself comes from an awareness of surroundings, a fearless presence, and an understanding of your capabilities.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 08:56 pm
It's particularly difficult with physical limitations such as yours.

I co-facilitated a self-defense program for the first time in the early1980's for a group of people with significant physical challenges, including a couple of people in electric wheelchairs. Confidence and awareness matter - people looking for someone to assault tend to avoid confident people and people aware of their surroundings.

There are specially designed self-defense programs for people with visual restrictions. It's an area of concern.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 08:58 pm
@ehBeth,
If I hold my head high, I will miss the change in the pathway.. especially me, with truncated peripheral vision.

I've walked a lot of miles in my life, and by now I know stuff. So far, so good, I'll skip re doing Yosemite, but I'm more caught up in more disassociated places, like
Albuquerque..

Like a space film in beigeland.
Lustig Andrei
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 09:02 pm
Dressing 'provocatively' has nothing to do with rape. Rape is not, in its basics, a sexual crime at all. It is a crime of passionate violence. The rapist's major goal is total dominance over his victim. Sexual satisfaction has almost nothing to do with it.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 09:26 pm
@ossobuco,
Bob and Diane and Walter and I went to the Acoma pueblo.

Walter shot off with his camera, I didn't see him until later.

Bob couldn't do it, re breathing, and rested in the lodge.

I was information pleased but had trouble walking, Diane was off enjoying.

Soon, I couldn't do it, simply couldn't. I started to cry, but so what, since I was last. After a while, I showed up. I think only
Bob understood.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 09:28 pm
ah, off topic.

What is the topic?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 09:34 pm
@ossobuco,
I suppose I need to read back re The Captain.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 10:04 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

That doesn't make sense. You can make the same argument about mugging... people in their 90's have also been mugged.

There is a scientific question here; is a person dressed provocatively is more likely to get raped then someone dressed conservatively. I did a little searching and was unable to find any credible unbiased scientific research on the topic (although there is a lot of propaganda on the issue).

But is really doesn't matter. What matters is that this person is trying to do what he or she believed is right.

If a person suggest how he or she thinks you might be safer from crime, this isn't a particularly awful thing to do. This is a well-meaning person trying to be helpful.



I find it difficult to argue with this. Even if the person is wrong about there being a correlation between attire and victimhood, the intent is to give helpful advice and should be appreciated as such, or the person may stop trying to be helpful. I don't see any intent to pre-blame the victim.

Going on to correct his views is also not a bad idea. Such a mature and mutually respectful discussion could be productive.
 

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