Would the World be Better off Without Religion?

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Human rights, to a great or smaller extent, are REAL social needs if you want to have a Social background working at all...they didn't come out of nothingness just as anything else didn't...this in spite of what Laurence Krauss preaches...

...on another topic I don't believe in human inventions...in fact I dislike the pretentiousness of the word "invention" altogether every time I think about archetypes...I much prefer the word discovery.

Not sure why, but the thought that immediately came to my mind upon reading this was something Michelangelo supposedly said, "Every block of stone has a statue inside it, the sculptor's job is to discover it."

Sometimes the "discovering" takes a bit of doing!

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

It is likely that there are a lot of evil people out there who refrain from being a scumbag because they fear having to answer to God when they die. If we were to remove religion, such people would likely begin making the world a more unpleasant place."

Would you please point out where where I said the above.

I never said this or anything remotely close.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Doesn't that imply that two master sculptors presented with the same piece of stone will end up with the same statue?

That doesn't make sense to me.

1 Reply

@Wilso,

Quote:

argome321 wrote:

It is likely that there are a lot of evil people out there who refrain from being a scumbag because they fear having to answer to God when they die. If we were to remove religion, such people would likely begin making the world a more unpleasant place."

I never said this. this was before I knew how to use the quote button
I know I never said this because I don't use the word SCUMBAG.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Doesn't that imply that two master sculptors presented with the same piece of stone will end up with the same statue?

That doesn't make sense to me.

Lighten up...and it will.

(Hint: Perhaps it was Michelangelo showing a bit of modesty.)

2 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

....social phenomena like religion don't just exist out of mistakes or chance...they emerge out of social NEEDS.

I would argue that until the cows come home. The source of religion has got nothing to do with social needs. It was born out of the fear of death. It's that simple.

1 Reply

@argome321,

argome321 wrote:

Quote:
argome321 wrote:

It is likely that there are a lot of evil people out there who refrain from being a scumbag because they fear having to answer to God when they die. If we were to remove religion, such people would likely begin making the world a more unpleasant place."

I never said this. this was before I knew how to use the quote button
I know I never said this because I don't use the word SCUMBAG.

And that's my fault how?

1 Reply

@Wilso,

I'm not saying it is your fault. I'm saying don't credit it to me

0 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Societies may well develop distinct cultural traits all they want...details details...at their core they all work on the same principles....in fact the success of societies relies of the fine tuning of these small fluctuations in the general rules...the most successful ones that wont go extinct are precisely the most tolerant ones.

I think this is a statement of faith Fil-- something that you believe is true because you believe it should be true.

In any objective reading of history, the longest lasting civilizations weren't the most tolerant. Nor were the civilizations with the greatest resources, nor the civilizations with the longest lasting influence in literature, science or art.

Am I missing something here? What societies in history would you list as "most successful"?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Ok Frank, sure I will lighten up (I didn't mean to sound so combative). I was pushing on the issue because it amused me... and because it strikes me as relevant to the discussion.

Michelangelo was saying that exact sculpture he created was the only true sculpture possible from that stone. The implication is that if any other artist had produced a different sculpture from that stone, it would have been wrong (I am not sure I would consider this modesty).

This is like a member of a society (let's say modern Western society) developing a set of metaphysical beliefs (such as human rights) and then claiming that any other society developing a different set of beliefs is wrong.

Some cultures create a core narrative based around one or more deities.

Some cultures create a core narrative based around human rights.

I think both of these fulfill the same social needs. The core metaphysical beliefs of our current culture are centered much more around the latter than the former.

1 Reply

@argome321,

argome321 wrote:

Would you please point out where where I said the above.

I never said this or anything remotely close.

Apparently you were quoting someone else and screwed up on the quote function.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

Apparently you were quoting someone else and screwed up on the quote function.

Yeah, I had to go into my account page and turn the quote button on, Frank Apisa informed me,

0 Replies

@Wilso,

Pardon me the light mood but I see a cow behind your azz... Wink

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

You are confounding inner organization with tribalism...I referred to inner tolerance and productivity not tribalism towards distinct cultures...

...in my mind I know perfectly what I am talking about whether you can grasp what I mean or not is another matter...perhaps my gibberish is alien to you I am sure...

PS - I would give you a hint on how civilizations flourish or for that matter anything else in the Universe as I point higher to Universal rules...energy efficiency is the key. It is everywhere. Societies exist in the same way critical mass on hydrogen atoms number is needed for the Sun to light up...culture and great ideas work just the same and they require a favourable social background cauldron to "emerge" which in turns requires a great deal of harmony and stability...leave property out of it. This is 2015 the wired age...complexity is fragile like a flower hard to make but very easy to destroy...

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

Doesn't that imply that two master sculptors presented with the same piece of stone will end up with the same statue?

That doesn't make sense to me.

Lighten up...and it will.

(Hint: Perhaps it was Michelangelo showing a bit of modesty.)

No Frank I really meant it. And thank for that quote from Michaelangelo !
Also as biology, nature itself, often teaches us, things get to be "re invented", rediscovered many times... if I am not mistaken the eye was developed by natural selection in 5 different occasions or something of the sort...I suppose when a Chinese and and American get to the same equation in maths or physics matters of property are a technicality on who gets to register it first...art is no different in one way or another things resemble things from music to paintings...in the end people, even the best among us, are vanity and mediocrity...That's all.

0 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil, you have written a powerful expression of faith. I wish that you could give me specifics (I am scientifically oriented), but since you are talking about metaphysics I suppose I have to just accept what you say as it is.

The question is whether religion and metaphysics make the world better. I believe that it is a necessary part of our social interactions and a core part of human nature.

Your writing seems to support this idea.

1 Reply

Let me clear to this audience that I am far from being a religious person and at best my idea of "God" is way closer to atheistic current positions in its pantheistic (although non materialistic more like information theory) perspective then it could ever be with the Abrahamic childish fantasy...nonetheless atheists, better put the new age ignoramus group vanguard of fervours atheists born out of a cultural deficit problem in the United States and England population get it all wrong...if it wasn't religion it would be something else and something perhaps worse and way more barbarian...God works like a discrete useful policemen...when the secular justice fails God enters to bring justice or fear of justice into a species made of grown up mediocre children...Religion is for now needed and like a stubborn grass root no matter how many times you try to cut it it always come back...the degree of naivety, sheer ignorance needed to not perceive it is staggering and jaw dropping...are these our intellectual leaders ? Oh boy zombie apocalypse is already here...crowd wisdom captured the idea innocently but hit bullseye...

...another idea onto the roots of Religion aside fear of retribution and granted fear of death, is the idea of Universal mathematical unity...it is instinctive in a species that thinks poorly but thinks nonetheless...this intuition of unity which is conductive to the biggest possible set is then transformed and humanized in folklore into the Abrahamic god or other cultural gods we all come to know...it suffices to say it is so vital it wont go away...now you all atheistic deceived fools read my gibberish twice or more if needed be filter the language barrier and if you can learn something for a change !

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

You seem to be equating religion and metaphysics. They are quite distinct, I think.

1 Reply

Just to show how ridiculous the all thing is, trying to kill religions is not far from being compared with prohibiting literature writing and imposing scientific papers in its place...its madness at its best ! Sheesh Romans were way clever 2000 years ago then we are today..their empire lasted precisely because it avoided this sort of problem. Never take way drink and circus out of the masses less alone their own gods ! It will come back with avengence !

0 Replies

@FBM,

FBM wrote:

You seem to be equating religion and metaphysics. They are quite distinct, I think.

Yes, I am absolutely equating religion and metaphysics (I suppose formally religion is a subset of metaphysics). The both deal with the supernatural; i.e. things that are not testable by science. I think that the two are closely related and serve the same function in society.

I would be interested in knowing how you think they are distinct.

You haven't answered my specific question about human rights (which you said is part of metaphysics). Can you give me an argument for the existence of human rights that doesn't serve equally well as an argument for the existence of God?

1 Reply

Would the World be Better off Without Religion?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know