48
   

Would the World be Better off Without Religion?

 
 
auroreII
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2015 05:43 am
@argome321,
You seem to be saying that if we were to take religion out of people’s lives that they would just normally act in a reasonable (whatever that is) manner due to some innate goodness. Do you really believe that? Reasonable? According to whom?
You seem to be saying that to be religious you must abandon all science and reason. Do you really believe that? I have found that not to be true.
Would you say that it is reasonable to deny someone else the right to believe in religion because you have deemed it illogical?
It seems that with the Christian faith a person has to find the Lord in their own way. It is an ongoing process brought about by experience, faith and logic.

Something to think about. It is just my opinion:

Religion, all religions, can be taken to extremes. One extreme is strict adherence to God's laws/ commandments. We need the law. Without the law we fall into lawlessness and chaos. We also need a just God because without that there is no strength in the law.

Christians believe that only God is perfect. Because people are not perfect they cannot hope to live up to the perfection of religions that require strict adherence to the law. Islamic fanatics believe in strict adherence to the law. Like Islam, Christianity has the law, but Christianity also has forgiveness in the person of Jesus.

Christians are told not to judge. Because only God is perfect, when we judge ourselves righteous and condemn another for being sinful we have become self righteous. How can people ever be righteous if they are not perfect? If people are not perfect then it would follow that we must all be sinners. Interestingly enough this makes us all equal in the eyes of God. When we condemn another for their sinful behavior we agree with the law that says sinners are deserving of condemnation, but at the same time aren't we also condemning ourselves because we, like them, are not perfect and therefore also sinners? When we do something wrong that is deserving of punishment don't we hope for leniency and mercy for ourselves? Knowing that, should we not then show this same love and forgiveness toward others that we wish for ourselves?

The end result of christianity is love. The bible gives us two commandments under the covenant forged by Jesus. That we love God and that we love our neighbors as ourselves. Even if we don't know or understand the law as presented to us in the commandments most everyone can understand what it means to be loved. We also have the person of Christ who is our perfect example and embodies these two commandments in all that he does.

Religious extremists often demand strict adherence to the law. Their law does not allow for forgiveness. Religious extremists that only have the law use their religious laws to justify their right to condemn another and because people are not perfect a reason can always be found to judge others as less righteous and therefore worthy of punishment under the law. Those who are condemned may very well be guilty of having broken the law -in large part because people are not perfect.

Religious extremists who try to follow the law may seek to prove themselves righteous, yet being imperfect and therefore also falling short of the perfection the law demands; they can never find righteousness through the law. They are then apt to seek self righteousness by pointing out the faults of others and meting out punishment. They are always looking for faults in others to condemn so they can feel righteous. In Christianity Jesus is the forgiveness for an imperfect world. Born of God and not of man he was perfect/righteous. He died. He did not deserve to die under the law. He died in our place to fulfill what was required of the law that we might live not under the law, but under grace, God's love and forgiveness.

Was it self righteousness that drove Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to kill an eight year old boy, three young college girls and a security guard with their homemade bomb?

Religious extremists, in their zeal to obtain righteousness for themselves under the law, can exact their punishment for misdeeds at any time. People are not perfect, only God is perfect. There can be no sense of peace only a fear that religious extremists may turn their judgment on you next.

You can find religious extremists in all religions. I follow Jesus. He is my peace. I find it truly amazing the way God, through his son, has set up his plan of forgiveness, love and peace.

The recent arrest of Crawford and Feight, who wanted to kill muslims with radiation, shows just another example of self righteousness. You can find extremists in followers of all beliefs. Regardless of their beliefs there will be people who will judge others as undesirable, and worthy of punishment and/or death. You don’t necessarily need religion in that respect .


argome321
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2015 08:03 am
@auroreII,
Quote:
You seem to be saying that if we were to take religion out of people’s lives that they would just normally act in a reasonable (whatever that is) manner due to some innate goodness. Do you really believe that? Reasonable? According to whom?


1) Would you do me a favor and highlight exactly where I said that people "
would just normally act in a reasonable (whatever that is) manner due to some innate goodness. "




Quote:
You seem to be saying that to be religious you must abandon all science and reason. Do you really believe that? I have found that not to be true.
Would you say that it is reasonable to deny someone else the right to believe in religion because you have deemed it illogical?



So it is permissive to you that people would fly planes into building, kill in the name of their religion for the sake of 76 virgins? Do people even procreate in the after life?


It seems that with the Christian faith a person has to find the Lord in their own way. It is an ongoing process brought about by experience, faith and logic.


Save, part of christian belief is to step on other people rights.
Many believe that it is their right..their duty to influence and push their beliefs on others.



Something to think about. It is just my opinion:

Save most religions, at least the major ones, don't care what others think. Isn't that one of the many reasons that they are in constant conflict with one another and among themselves?

Quote:
Religion, all religions, can be taken to extremes. One extreme is strict adherence to God's laws/ commandments. We need the law. Without the law we fall into lawlessness and chaos. We also need a just God because without that there is no strength in the law.


A just god? how many times does this god kills his own creation? The threat of hell, the threat of floods, brimstone and fire?He creates man flawed and then punishes him for being flawed? if we define human as to err, then doesn't it stand to reason that man is perfect and expecting him to be perfect, what ever that means , would be something other then man?

Quote:
Christians believe that only God is perfect. Because people are not perfect they cannot hope to live up to the perfection of religions that require strict adherence to the law. Islamic fanatics believe in strict adherence to the law. Like Islam, Christianity has the law, but Christianity also has forgiveness in the person of Jesus.


You don't need religion to be forgiving. I find it odd that you give respect to something that hasn't been proven, the existence of a god or gods and yet you give little to no credit to man who you know exist
this is one of the many, many and varied reasons why we would be better off, in my opinion, and maybe man would rely more on himself for his happiness.

Quote:
Christians are told not to judge. Because only God is perfect, when we judge ourselves righteous and condemn another for being sinful we have become self righteous. How can people ever be righteous if they are not perfect? If people are not perfect then it would follow that we must all be sinners. Interestingly enough this makes us all equal in the eyes of God. When we condemn another for their sinful behavior we agree with the law that says sinners are deserving of condemnation, but at the same time aren't we also condemning ourselves because we, like them, are not perfect and therefore also sinners? When we do something wrong that is deserving of punishment don't we hope for leniency and mercy for ourselves? Knowing that, should we not then show this same love and forgiveness toward others that we wish for ourselves?


your preaching, Christian don't judge? Right Rolling Eyes

Quote:
The end result of christianity is love. The bible gives us two commandments under the covenant forged by Jesus. That we love God and that we love our neighbors as ourselves. Even if we don't know or understand the law as presented to us in the commandments most everyone can understand what it means to be loved. We also have the person of Christ who is our perfect example and embodies these two commandments in all that he does.


The end result is love? Yes, if your idea of love is sadistic and masochistic.


Quote:
Religious extremists often demand strict adherence to the law. Their law does not allow for forgiveness. Religious extremists that only have the law use their religious laws to justify their right to condemn another and because people are not perfect a reason can always be found to judge others as less righteous and therefore worthy of punishment under the law. Those who are condemned may very well be guilty of having broken the law -in large part because people are not perfect.

Religious extremists who try to follow the law may seek to prove themselves righteous, yet being imperfect and therefore also falling short of the perfection the law demands; they can never find righteousness through the law. They are then apt to seek self righteousness by pointing out the faults of others and meting out punishment. They are always looking for faults in others to condemn so they can feel righteous. In Christianity Jesus is the forgiveness for an imperfect world. Born of God and not of man he was perfect/righteous. He died. He did not deserve to die under the law. He died in our place to fulfill what was required of the law that we might live not under the law, but under grace, God's love and forgiveness.

Was it self righteousness that drove Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to kill an eight year old boy, three young college girls and a security guard with their homemade bomb?

Religious extremists, in their zeal to obtain righteousness for themselves under the law, can exact their punishment for misdeeds at any time. People are not perfect, only God is perfect. There can be no sense of peace only a fear that religious extremists may turn their judgment on you next.

You can find religious extremists in all religions. I follow Jesus. He is my peace. I find it truly amazing the way God, through his son, has set up his plan of forgiveness, love and peace.

The recent arrest of Crawford and Feight, who wanted to kill muslims with radiation, shows just another example of self righteousness. You can find extremists in followers of all beliefs. Regardless of their beliefs there will be people who will judge others as undesirable, and worthy of punishment and/or death. You don’t necessarily need religion in that respect .


Yeah, he sacrifices his self unto his self and you see that as love?

I just believe that when people delude themselves they become vulnerable and susceptible for manipulation by others. I think it also gives them an excuse to not take responsibility for their lives and their actions, to not to think things through clearly. I feel that is wasted energy.

Ask your self why are the prison full of people who believe in god?
How has their belief worked for them?
Sure there are many people in prisons who don't believe in god, but I would bet the believers out number the non-believers.
How do you explain such a vindictive god of the old testament?

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2015 08:25 am
@argome321,
Quote:
Ask your self why are the prison full of people who believe in god?
How has their belief worked for them?


Your simple minded correlation is not enough to entertain less alone to deserve any more then a vague reply.

Modern science, or better more justly put, some sectors in modern science have a good old fashioned witch hunt on their hands...

...a foolish appalling disturbing belief that if they eradicate religion the world might become just a bit better, more civilized...

...it couldn't be more wrong...
In fact their course of action is proof of the opposite !
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2015 08:56 am
I think pseudoscience(s) should be included in the OP question. They operate so much like religions that they're practically indistinguishable. Alien master races, homeopathy, crystal power, blah blah. The human mind is capable of imagining a great deal more than simple religions.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2015 10:57 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
[
Quote:
b]Your simple minded correlation is not enough to entertain less alone to deserve any more then a vague reply.[/b]


Yet with your superior mind, god you reply. What, you couldn't find a hole deep enough today or wall to masturbate behind?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2015 06:31 pm
@argome321,
...follow up cliché expected...keep grasping at straws, bye bye ! Wink
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Mar, 2015 06:21 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
.follow up cliché expected...keep grasping at straws, bye bye ! Wink


WOW...I'm overwhelmed by your profound insight. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
hanumanchalisayantra
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Mar, 2015 10:34 pm
Yeah may be.. There Should be only one religion. thats it . same for everyone
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 08:46 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
It does nothing more than create division among mankind and tells him that faith is greater than reason which is the biggest crime any organization can commit.

The idea that faith is more valuable than reason is more than a failure of an organization, it is a failure of human thought and common sense. The blame for this lies with each individual.

It's a bit surprising that such a brain failure should survive the evolutionary filter, but if we look at the actual behavior pattern it's clear that people only allow faith to supersede common sense when it doesn't threaten survival. So ultimately it's an odd quirk that we should abandon reason in favor of faith when reason serves us so well in every other way.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 09:20 am
@rosborne979,
Common sense has more in common with faith than with reason. Often we fool ourselves into thinking that our beliefs are reason, when really they are faith. Sincerely held beliefs that aren't proven are faith, not reason.

Take human rights, for example. This is something that most modern Western humans believe in wholeheartedly-- that humans are born with intrinsic rights. In reality there is no rational basic for the idea that humans have rights. Human rights were invented (and our modern view of human rights is radically different than earlier beliefs and was developed in the past 100 years).

The evidence for human rights is no more compelling then the evidence for God. And yet people act as if they are real things.

Of course, the belief in human rights is just as important for us in modern societies as earlier beliefs were for their respective societies. Our beliefs provide us a sense of meaning and importance and a shared sense of responsibility.

It should be noted that this is no different than the beliefs that earlier societies had about deities.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 03:46 pm
@maxdancona,
Human rights, to a great or smaller extent, are REAL social needs if you want to have a Social background working at all...they didn't come out of nothingness just as anything else didn't...this in spite of what Laurence Krauss preaches...

...on another topic I don't believe in human inventions...in fact I dislike the pretentiousness of the word "invention" altogether every time I think about archetypes...I much prefer the word discovery.
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 03:51 pm
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:



It is likely that there are a lot of evil people out there who refrain from being a scumbag because they fear having to answer to God when they die. If we were to remove religion, such people would likely begin making the world a more unpleasant place."



That is one of the most terrifying aspects of religion. Those who profess that religion is the core of their morals are saying that the only thing that separates them from Ted Bundy is a flimsy superstition. I'm a good person because it's right. Not because I'm scared of what will happen when I die.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 03:59 pm
@Wilso,
I wonder to what extent this is true...if it was the case human beings in their vast majority were able to be good without symbolic social constrains then probably we wouldn't need cops nor courts...

...being aware most crimes go unpunished and being aware in essence Law is a symbolic power on which people believe in blind faith through social indoctrination since young age, making the distinction between both things suddenly becomes way harder...

...if anything Religion it is the precursor of secular law...this is yet one of the subtleties new atheist movement continually keeps missing....social phenomena like religion don't just exist out of mistakes or chance...they emerge out of social NEEDS.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 04:05 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Human rights, to a great or smaller extent, are REAL social needs if you want to have a Social background working at all.


I think that is demonstrably false. Humanity developed, raised families, built societies, made music, wrote literature, created art and thrived for thousands of years without anything close to our modern concept of "human rights". We invented our modern understanding of human rights in the past 100 years (a fairly short time in the 200,000 years of the existence of modern humans).

I use the word "invention" very deliberately. There are no human rights to discover and there are no deities to discover.

We made them up.


neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 04:05 pm
@Wilso,
argome321 wrote:
It is likely that there are a lot of evil people out there who refrain from being a scumbag because they fear having to answer to God when they die. If we were to remove religion, such people would likely begin making the world a more unpleasant place."
Wilso wrote:
That is one of the most terrifying aspects of religion. Those who profess that religion is the core of their morals are saying that the only thing that separates them from Ted Bundy is a flimsy superstition. I'm a good person because it's right. Not because I'm scared of what will happen when I die.
And the maddening part of it is there is no reason to believe in an afterlife. For thousands of years the priests of the Abrahamic religions have steadfastly ignored the words of Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

Probably because the flock would defrock 'em if they knew.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 04:12 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Human rights, to a great or smaller extent, are REAL social needs if you want to have a Social background working at all.


I think that is demonstrably false. Humanity developed, raised families, built societies, made music, wrote literature, created art and thrived for thousands of years without anything close to our modern concept of "human rights". We invented our modern understanding of human rights in the past 100 years (a fairly short time in the 200,000 years of the existence of modern humans).

I use the word "invention" very deliberately. There are no human rights to discover.

We made them up.


I think you are relying to much on a technicality on what constitutes a human right, what is in or out of it...

Setting this aside is patently true that no society can perform or simply exist if a set of laws that keeps peace and predictability is not in place. People either see an advantage on gathering together or they go away.

On your second point I remember you that one of the oddities coming out of modern theoretic physics mathematics information theory is the notion of repeatability....the maximum amount of information arrangements possible within X size space from plank scale up...nothing is truly invented when you consider the biggest possible set of what is possible within such space. Archetypes are an old idea that has suddenly caught traction within the most recent paradigms that modern science brought recently to the table.

I will be arrogant and just bluntly state I have been waiting for this over the past two decades...
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 04:21 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Setting this aside is patently true that no society can perform or simply exist if a set of laws that keeps peace and predictability is not in place. People either see an advantage on gathering together or they go away.


I agree with this. It is also true that different thriving societies have developed radically different sets of laws. We are social creatures who evolved to organize into societies with shared rules and values.

And this really goes along with my point.

I would also say that no society can perform or simply exist without a set of core metaphysical beliefs that provide its members with meaning and a set of shared values.

For some societies this set of core metaphysical beliefs includes one or more deities. In our modern society this set of core metaphysical beliefs includes the idea of human rights. The exact set of core metaphysical beliefs doesn't matter. Deities and human rights both serve the needed purpose and successful societies have develop around each.

Humans invented human rights for the same reason that human invented gods. They are two examples of effective ways to meet our need for a set of metaphysical beliefs that stems from how we evolved as a social animal.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 04:24 pm
@maxdancona,
Societies may well develop distinct cultural traits all they want...details details...at their core they all work on the same principles....in fact the success of societies relies of the fine tuning of these small fluctuations in the general rules...the most successful ones that wont go extinct are precisely the most tolerant ones. This in turn doesn't mean the general principles including human rights are not at their core the same. Differences rather rely on the extent to which theses human rights encompass all herd members, or to what extent more or less of them are attributed considering the degree of importance people have within X society.

Check back as I edited to reply to your second point regarding "inventions"... Thanks !
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 04:31 pm
@neologist,
Passage fondness nothwithstanding, it isn't just the Abrahamic religions that feature an afterlife.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2015 04:38 pm
@InfraBlue,
That may be true. But the only contrary passages I can find are in the Bible.
0 Replies
 
 

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