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Would the World be Better off Without Religion?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 11:42 am
@rosborne979,
This thread question reminds me of the child question why do flies exist...

...well they have a USEFUL purpose.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 01:42 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
So, how do you deal with the paradox that results from God's almightiness, which is how your religion describes God, and his lack of omniscience?
You mean, personally?
I have struggled with this definition:
Is omniscience the capacity to know all? or
the necessity to know all?
I have been wrong to have asserted that Jehovah is not omniscient. Watchtower literature often uses that word because, while nothing may be hidden from him, He is under no compulsion to use any of his powers. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused by avoiding the word. But I remain uncomfortable with its use because, to many, it implies necessity.

I shall be more careful in my use of words.
neo also wrote:
Does it trouble you that our current world situation seems to permit unrestrained free will?
InfraBlue wrote:
I don't think that "the current world situation seems to permit unrestrained free will."
OK
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 03:08 pm
@neologist,
I'm referring to your religion's dogma.

If God is almighty then omniscience would be a capacity subordinate to his almightiness. You've written that God chooses not to know in regard to human free will and the end results thereof, then you racanted but didn't provide an alternative.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 03:42 pm
@InfraBlue,
Would you be so kind as to remind me of what you believe to be my "religion's dogma"?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 04:06 pm


At 27.00 minutes in, Dennet explains it.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 04:24 pm
@neologist,
Let me turn the tables around I will give you 1 dogma of my own brew...

"God" is a very simple thing, we are the complicated stuff.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 05:34 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Let me turn the tables around I will give you 1 dogma of my own brew...

"God" is a very simple thing, we are the complicated stuff.
Quite true.
Does that surprise you?
All we need to know about God is simple enough for the least sophisticated of us to understand.
Where the complication started was in Genesis 3:4, when the lie was invented.
Since then, a multiplicity of lies has covered the earth.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:01 pm
@neologist,
Have it ever occurred to you that lies have use other then in the parochial sense as to provide value into things ?
The value of truth itself is zero if you don't have the possibility of truth being hidden hard or requiring effort, work, in order to surface.

"God" is also the god of lies...knowledge is to be hard earned not given, or life would be REALLY meaningless...
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:12 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
"God" is also the god of lies...knowledge is to be hard earned not given, or life would be REALLY meaningless...


This here is a profound statement Fil, one that intrigues me. Why would life be meaningless if knowledge were to be given or shared freely?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:15 pm
@Smileyrius,
Because value requires work effort. Key word to think around here is where does value comes from. Hence why work edifies ! Work is the provider of meaning. If it is easy to get then its hard to value. You can test this idea with very simple examples. If you had a factory of Ferraris you would probably drive a Lamborghini...
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:19 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Lies are deliberate and meant to deceive. I favor the word 'falsehood', or as you refer to "truth being hidden." God encourages us to learn from nature and repudiate lies.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:19 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Lies are deliberate and meant to deceive. I favor the word 'falsehood', or as you refer to "truth being hidden." God encourages us to learn from nature and repudiate lies.


Agreed.
But you don't know why in simple terms and I do.
God solves it in the end as God is already "computed". Hence why "God" is truth. Its the timelessness of reality as whole that makes God ultimately the God of truth...but for us subsets work is fundamental for meaningful progression in direction to "God"...
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:32 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
but only if you view knowledge as a product, rather than a tool. If this were the case, we would not have so many knowledgeable fools.

Could knowledge not be likened to paint upon a canvas? Perhaps it could be the quality of the "application" of knowledge provides it's value, rather than the difficulty of it's "acquisition".
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:48 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Agreed.
But you don't know why in simple terms and I do.
God solves it in the end as God is already "computed". Hence why "God" is truth. Its the timelessness of reality as whole that makes God ultimately the God of truth...but for us subsets work is fundamental for meaningful progression in direction to "God"...
Hmm.
I would think that for us to repudiate lies, it would first be a good idea to identify them.
So the first lie: "You certainly will not die. . ." - Genesis 3:4
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:12 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Would you be so kind as to remind me of what you believe to be my "religion's dogma"?

I'm asking you to clarify it in regard to it's take on God's omniscience and humans' free will.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2015 05:28 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
but only if you view knowledge as a product, rather than a tool. If this were the case, we would not have so many knowledgeable fools.

Nice. Care to expand?
0 Replies
 
HesDeltanCaptain
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Aug, 2015 08:55 am
@argome321,
Better? Depends on what mechanism came about that got rid of it. Can never get rid of it by force or legislation, ask the Romans how that went with Christianity. If we evolved our way out of it it could have a positive overall effect. Or my idea of geneticly engineering out our propensity for violence and belief in mysticism it could work as well. In time.
0 Replies
 
Angelgz2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2015 08:08 am
"It does nothing more then hinders the growth and true happiness of man kind."
So let me ask you, are you happy knowing that you'll become the same as that dirt on the ground after you die? There will be no afterlife, and your consciousness cease to exist for all eternity.

"It preys on primal fears. It does nothing more than create division among mankind and tells him that faith is greater than reason which is the biggest crime any organization can commit."
Go to China then, a country without religion. Then see for yourself whether people are rather united. I can tell you that's the most divided nation in the world. People in the same town could be "racist" against another because they are from another area of the town. People have affairs, cheat, lie, steal ...etc because there's no primal fears of the ultimate punishment. If you enjoy that, please, be my guest. China will welcome you in warm arms.

"What ever good it claims it does that very good can be achieved with out religion. Do nothing else but pray and see how long one last."
You are rather ignorant of religion. You are probably one of those people I discussed in a previous post, becoming swayed by the mass media telling you the every day conflict between religions and how many deaths there have been. Sure, there are people who abuses religion, and there are blind faith, but don't equate those with the mass majority. I don't pray and do nothing.

"Is faith is the opposite of reason then why should man abandon reason? Reason and curiosty is man's very nature. To abandon reason, logic and skepticism is paramount to suicide. Why does religion want us to commit suicide?"
WTF? When did religion ever tell us to commit suicide? In fact suicide is a sin in Christianity. You are generalizing the action of some extremists to everyone else. When did religion ever tell us to abandon reason? Again, you are rather ignorant of religion.

"All that allows us to live a healthier and longer happier life comes from technology via science via logic and reason and our empirical skill, not faith.
Religion want us to ream children and never grow up and take responsibility for our actions. It is time we grow up as a people and take off the religions shackles that hinder our growth."
How is technology and science in conflict with religion? Do you have any evidence from religious scriptures that says NOT to advance science and technology? Don't confuse what preachers tell you with the actual religious text. People can misinterpret religion or can even intentionally misguide you. All the greatest scientists are religious: Newton, Einstein, and many 14th century astronomers are in fact also from the Islamic world (google that).
Sure, the church back then is oppressing of new ideas, but is that so different today? Try to invent something and throw off the Standard Model and see how many scientist will accept your idea. An established belief system, whether scientific or religious, requires a lot of evidence to change.

"Do we need to fear the loss of religion? I think not.
Religion is a bad and immoral placebo"
There are religious immoral people and there are immoral atheists. Again, take China for example. Please go there and see for yourself. People are thought to only use reason since birth and that religions are all "superstition". Organized religion without government approval is severely punished, possibly by death. So, if you enjoy that, again, please feel free to go there. The strong and wealthy preys on the poor and unfortunate. So, answer this: if logic and reason is so great, what reason do I have not to dominate everyone else if I am the most powerful person in the world. If I have the wealth and power to destroy nations for my own gain, why shouldn't I do it?

So please, take some philosophy classes and research before you accuse. Many philosopher such as David Hume has tried to come up with a moral theory without religion. Look at those text and then make some wiser statements.

0 Replies
 
Dropship
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2015 06:25 pm
@argome321,
Argome321 said- "I think religion is one of the most insideous evils ever created."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Huh? Which bit of this do you think is evil?-
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2015 09:20 pm
@Dropship,
Welcome to a2k.
It gets better.
Or, maybe not.
Stick around.
0 Replies
 
 

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