BEARERS OF THE TRUTH....

anyone ever tells you they know the "truth" run like hell.

First I agree with dyslexia and secondly truth is limited by perception. My truth may not be your truth.

Are you saying no truth stands alone, separate from perception?

yes

Re: BEARERS OF THE TRUTH....


Generally, I think that if any person comes upon a "truth" and a group of people that share that "truth", if the person remains with that position eventually the rest of the group will move away from them and another group will fill in.

Think of it as riding on a train. If you remain on the train others on the train with you will get off while others get on at each stop.

Fabulous thread, IMO, Mapleleaf.

My answer is no. You can't remain 'one' with a group, and serve the truth. You don't have to forsake the group, but you should point it out when you're group is wrong.

Anyone who blindly parrots the stance of their chosen group (I'm thinking political party, but can go with the larger 'group' reference) will have to 'spin' a fact now and then to cover their groups mistakes or short-comings.

Truth is a wiggly item. Fact is irrefutable, but opinion based on 'our truths' wiggles.

So many people will close their eyes to a fact, when it leads them to their group's error.

Within the context of recorded history, what individuals appear to stand alone, regardless of what groups may say? Martin Luther? Einstein?

man is a social animal- no man stands outside of that.

In current history I think you could probably list Nelson Mandela for one.

In this context, I must admit ignorance of detail of either of these guys.

But, you brought to mind MLK and Malcolm X in his final days.
MLK--His group browbeat his behavior as an Uncle Tom. He was beaten, arrested, maligned by his own group and finally murdered--but he stuck to his guns. Non-violence. A model of conviction.

Malcolm X withdrew from the Muslim credo of hate and seperation after his spiritual awakening at Mecca. He sacrificed himself, because he knew his group was wrong. He knew it would lead to his death.

These are the first two men I thought of.

I agree that Malcom X is not appreciated for his evolution of thought and action. He was labeled and it stuck.

I think JoanneDorel said it all. The truth is in the eye of the behoder.


Only if you are a lemming.

mapleleaf, another terrific post - TRUTH!
indeed -
truth as being "that which supports one's position"
does not sound at all like truth, but rather
like a tool, or a
ragged piece of manipulation
truth can never be found in the polite and
common, in the mainstream of society
but your ears already know it, and how they
prickle & they perk up when they begin to hear it
or divine it
or see it

I do not truly know what 'truth' is in the overall scheme of things. I just know that I have never 'belonged', truly, in any group I have interacted with for more than a few months at a stretch. I prefer the inconsistencies of a Henry Miller to the structured thoughts of the established philosophers.

Truth is, as stated, a perception. Yet it is also, something I haven't read yet, interpretation. And it's elusive , since, judging from my own experience, the idea of what the truth is will constantly change over time. In that, as in all things, we grow and develop.

Perception can be an experience that may be equal throughout a group, yet interpretation is purely individualistic. Since every person is different, every interpretation is different, and discussions can and will emerge where people discuss their points of view with each other. As we do here!
So one can not truly fit in with any group, because, if only one digs deep enough, differences will emerge between even the most likeminded people.

Finally, a statement regarding truth. Sadly enough there are people who think that they know the truth, and there can be only one truth. So everybody who disagrees is wrong. If these people have some form of power, they are very dangerous indeed. In that, I agree with babsatamelia. It can be a 'ragged piece of manipulation'.
Everybody has his or her own truth. This is my belief. If only we could accept this from each other I reckon this would be a better world.

Naj.

Fact vs. Values
"Truth is a wiggly item. Fact is irrefutable, but opinion based on 'our truths' wiggles."--Lash Goth

Lash Goth seems to be making a distinction that I always like to see. That is the difference between Facts and Values. There are many facts upon which we can all agree. When it comes to these we mostly agree that they are true in some sense (I say this with recognition that all knowledge is sometimes called into question).

When it comes to the values that we attach to facts or to values that may stand apart from facts, we have wide disagreement. It is this disagreement over values that makes necessary the bill of rights, which allows each of us to hold those values that seem best to himer.

Another thing that is sometimes confusing is when Values are mistaken for Facts. This often happens in arguments involving religion where certain Values are said the have absolute standing and are therefore the same as facts. For example the Value "You Shall Not Kill" is sometimes take to be a fact.

Truth, beauty; beauty, truth.
Truth is itself evanescent; it shades with the time of day, the glint of an eye,
the levelling of a gun!

There is perhaps the "truth" of the moment; which is of little use to build a nation upon - take for example the US.

Is it perhaps the very seeking of truth, in a fair and honest manner, which far outstrips the actual "truth" itself in value!

This comment has a ring of TRUTH.

A group and the truth.
If each man must "read" the truth for himself and each man is different, then the "reading" must be at least slightly different for each man.
If one combines a group of men and their individual "readings " of the same truth, then the resultant "truth" must be a blend. The more you add to the blend by increasing the group size, the more you deviate from any one "reading" by one man.
My conclusion : At some point in size, the blended truth of the group will differ too greatly for a single group member to read as his truth.