1
   

Transgender murders-one a month

 
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 07:03 pm
Deb,

Extinction could be the goal. There will be three groups of mourners a the end of humankind, the three types of human body lice. The rest of creation may be cheering.

You are right the murderers now have to live with themselves for the rest of their lives. If convicted they will have to be around GLBTs in prison, it don't look too good for them. Look what happened to Jeff Dahmer. In prison there is no justice only punishment, deserved or not.

Sam
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 07:08 pm
Well, Sam - the murderers lives are pretty much ruined - and they are just kids, too.

In fact - their youth goes a little way to explaining things, that being an age of such vulnerability around sexual identity, in a homophobic culture.

I think the mutual declaration argument is ideally good, but empirically bad.

In a world of rough and bumpy edges, I prefer to insure myself empirically - not just ideally, if you get my point.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 07:16 pm
Craven,

I think the biggest contributing factors were Pot and alcohol, all those inhibitions that keep people from doing things they will regret go by-by. I don't know any of those involved, sober they may have never considered killing any one. They were intoxicated and they did.
Teenage girls are not usually noted for being worldly wise, remember Gwen was a girl in her head, she was also intoxicated. That's a bad combination, like putting dumb and stupid together.
I did not know her either. Had she been sober she might have thought to tell the others that she was trans. Had she been sober she might have thought that she was in a dangerous situation and left.
We can only speculate, we will never know.

Sam
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 07:26 pm
Deb,

Gotcha.

All of the Native Elders that Billie and I have been close to have said the same thing, "Protect Billie".
I have been charged with her life, It's my job until one of us dies. The nice thing is that we watch each others backs. Human predators are not dumb they look for weak, frightened victims. They won't find them here. We don't go to bars or spend time where we aren't wanted. It save trouble all the way around.
I did promise Billie that I would use minimum force if I ever had prevent someone from harming her.

Sam
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 07:40 pm
I have others that have accepted this responsibility, as well. I've told each of them, if there is to be force used, use the least amount of force necessary. Even on the rez, we find the odd person, but are more cautious in general society.

By being ourselves and treating people as well as we'd like to be treated, we haven't had any problems. Well, once when a guy screamed at me in a casino restaurant, after his losing a brother to AIDS. But that was the worse. Everything else was dealt calmly with words and no harm done, just a quick lesson in manners.

Interestingly, everyone thinks that I'm the one that could be a threat. Actually, I'm the nice one. It's Sam they should be concerned about!
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 07:50 pm
Sam1951 wrote:
Craven,

I think the biggest contributing factors were Pot and alcohol, all those inhibitions that keep people from doing things they will regret go by-by.


Tough call, Tough call. Factual basis for this is a bit difficult. People don't really track marijuana use that well, nor do we track "I discovered I had sex with a man" that well either.

Well let's work with this.

Compare in your mind the ratio at which people smoke weed and kill someone to the ratio at which they discover someone had sex with them and had fooled them in regard to gender.

Now I don't have those kinds of stats on the tip of my tongue (mainly because such stats have not ever been collected) but I suspect that it would indicate the whole sex deception thing being more of a catalyst than intoxicants.

Quote:

I did not know her either. Had she been sober she might have thought to tell the others that she was trans. Had she been sober she might have thought that she was in a dangerous situation and left.

Sam


I suspect you might be confused, this was not something that happened all in one day. Araujo was not drunk and high 24-7 (though he did appear to have problems with it based on the fact that he traded in sex for marijuana and beer according to acquaintances).

I'm not so sure you can pin this on intoxication (though it certainly could have played a part). Araujo's deception was his prerogative but was not a one time thing that happened while drunk.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 08:03 pm
Craven,

What I'm trying to say is that drunk, stoned people lose their inhibitions. You know the things that keep you from doing really dumb things. I think that if all parties had been totally sober they just might have acted differently.
I am not saying that either drinking or smoking pot is bad just that they both make people lose their inhibitions and act out of their normal character. Those guy with all their inhibitions intact might have roughed her up a bit, sent her packing and taken a hot soapy shower. Gwen might have said, "Hey guys did you know that I'm trans." All speculation on my part, I admit. All coulda, woulda, shoulda... My point remains the same drunk, stoned people do more stupid things than sober people.


One more thing, it was ought right stupid for Gwen to go off with five strangers. I swing both ways and I would never ever do that. Not just because I have Billie either but because it is stupid. for crying out loud you could end up dead!


Sam
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 08:08 pm
I agree. Thing is, this was not a one night thing. Eddie Araujo had plenty of opportunities to set the record straight.

Incidentally, I have found reports that Araujo used to trade sex for drugs and alcohol and that the murder began at a party but no reports that the murderers were intoxicated.

It'd not surprise me but I'd like to know your source.

I am also unable to find a source that indicates that Eddie Araujo was intoxicated when he had sex with teh other boys.

It wouldn't surprise me, but if you have sources I'd liek to see them.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 08:13 pm
Craven,

One of the articles, damn I don't' remember which one, stated that all of them had been drinking and smoking pot. If Gwen was hooking for drinks and drugs she was dumber than I thought and probably alcoholic. I still don't see why the felt they had to commit murder.

Sam
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 08:20 pm
If they're guilty of murdering Gwen, I hope they're found guilty. No qualifiers for me.

I don't care if it was a one-night thing, an ongoing deception, no deception, whatever. If they murdered her, I hope they do serious time.



Each time I look at this, it amazes me that the stats (such as they are) would be as low as one a month for transgender people in the U.S. I'd have expected them to be higher.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 08:33 pm
ehBeth,

Yup, murder is murder regardless of the excuses or reasons, to me the only justification is self-defense. Not applicable here.
I think if they go to prison they will learn a whole lot about gay men that they do not want to know. If they live that long.

GLBTs in the US have learned to be very careful. It's a good way of staying alive and healthy. One of the many reasons Billie and I live where we do, it's safer.

Sam
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 08:46 pm
'Sides, Sam gets headaches when we get into large cities. Funny, she lived in St Paul, MN for most of her life.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 08:50 pm
Wiyaka,

That was then this is now and now I am hungry. You keep up with a2k, I'll cook up something tasty, with chicken, mushrooms, wine and you know stuff.
Sound Ok to you?

Sam
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 10:06 pm
Sam- OK, I'll try.

Craven,

I have just reviewed your postings and have found that I overlooked an important one here. You've made several valid remarks in that posting.

My comment of outlawing deception and sex was followed by a wink (:wink:). I thought you might understand. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I realized then, as now, that you would not attempt that for any reason.

I'm still trying hard to figure out the sexual deception part. I can agree with your understanding of deception as you descibe it and apologize for making light of it. This case is extremely complex. It's not common for a woman to have a constant menstual period and this is often the excuse used by transgendered women for not having coitus. If this was Gwen's excuse, the men she was with regularly had to be damned stupid, desperate, or both. Sam thinks that they were too damn drunk to be rational.

The stats are flawed on all sides, as you showed. My guess is that there are even more transgendered people murdered than we know. With police investigations as they are, reports can easily be wrong. True, the groups are often reporting deaths from the information garnered by the media, but some are from knowing a closeted person as well.

There is an old saying and it was even mentioned in my college Psychological Testing class. "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure." If true, most trying to keep records are liars, intentionally or not. That being the case, I'm ready to apologize for my errors and compliment you on your fine way of showing them to me. So, knowing that the stats are skewed, how do we rectify the situation? Confused

I sure wouldn't want to be on the jury! There are too many unknowns. Were these kids doing any other drugs. Were they tested for any? How much pot and beer was consumed by whom? A life was lost and others ruined for life, all because they were young and ignorant, stupid if you like.

Hopefully, it will help prevent things like this from happening again. A Gwen Araujo Memorial Fund has been started to help teach Bay Area transgendered teens to teach how to approach others on their being transgendered, as well as how to protect themselves against attacks of any kind. if only it was a "kinder and gentler" world, we wouldn't be discussing this, except in the past tense.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 10:12 pm
Actually, getting off murder by claiming intoxication is an extremely rare beast.

Circumstances, however, may be taken into account in sentencing.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 10:17 pm
I don't get why it'd be hard to be on the jury. I'd have no problems convicting them regardless of the complexity of the situation.

No matter what Araujo's role was, murder is wholly unjustified. Heck even a 'mere' beating is absurd and I hope Jaron Nabors gets stiff time as well.

I have less sympathy for the accused that do you. Drugs, stupidiy, and "paranoia" (defense's term) notwithstanding the acts they are accused of go much farther then that.

Heck they buried Araujo, I lament their fate not a wee bit. They'll deserve every bit of what they get.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 10:18 pm
Deb,

I do not see being under the influence as a way of getting off Murder 1. It may help explain how the whole thing happened.

Sam
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 10:22 pm
Craven,

Have I told you that I love you?

I was going to say that I would not like to be on the jury, but the realized that I would. It would be one way to see the facts and perhaps have some questions answered.

Sam
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2004 11:59 pm
I'd love to see these kids do time, don't get me wrong. They should all be sent up, including the girl that made the discovery that Gwen was still male, anatomically. After all, it may not have happened without her. The guys will be "fresh meat" in the joint and will be introduced to a whole new lifestyle.

The young woman that made the discovery and told the others is an accomplice, before and/or after the fact. She should be tried as well. I don't think she'll like being cooped up too well.

Jaron Nabors is going to do 11 years for copping a plea of manslaughter and turning states evidence. He's not going to have it any easier in the joint. Cons don't like people snitching to cop a plea. Not only that, he's not too bad looking, if you like the young jock look. That means more "fresh meat".

Convicting them should be easy. The lawyers are trying to place all of the blame on Gwen, even though these young men that admitted on the witness stand that they murdered Gwen. They claim it was done in a "panic". If you move someone off of the couch for bleeding too much on it, is that panicky? If you haul someone into a garage to avoid blood on the carpet, is that panicking? If one of you spends time wiping up blood from both the carpet or couch, as the others are finishing the job in the garage, is that panic or premeditated murder? Seems like premeditation to me.

Sam just told me that she'd love to be a fly on the wall when they feel a big hand on their shoulder and hear a voice from behind saying, "Hi! You can call me Bubba." What a thought. <shiver>

Wouldn't want to be in their shoes. No sir! I think that they'll soon understand some of the fear that Gwen had.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2004 12:03 am
Actually, Wiyaka - I don't think that further brutalizing these young people will help anybody - least of all Gwen.

I find it quite distressing that anyone could find anything to celebrate in the horrors awaiting young men in prison- nor should they be allowed to occur.
0 Replies
 
 

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