Transgender murders-one a month

Hmmm - I see.

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Not that the bigotry is not a problem or anything, just that I haven't seen any scientifically sound stats. Murders are not tracked this way so for now anyone touting stats will usually be touting some very biased and very poorly collated statistics.

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For those who don't know, this guy/girl "Gwen" committed a sex act with not one, but two heterosexual males at the same party.

Now, I'm not saying the little pervert got what he/she deserved, certainly doesn't deserve to be murdered, but I am saying he/she was a little pervert.

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Wiyaka wrote:

The murder of this young woman is as bad as some that occured in the South, at the hands of the KKK. The courts would not hesitate to charge someone with a hate crime if it was racially motivated,nor if a Caucasian were treated the same by a group of another race.[\quote]

I think that there should not be a "hate" crime designation for any reason. All crime is done because of hate or greed or selfishness (all three of which are very closely tied).

How offensive it would be if I were murdered and my family couldn't get a conviction on the perp because he didn't display enough "hate" towards me!

That would sure diminish the value of my life compared to, say, some able-bodied yet unwilling-to-contribute-to-society who was killed by some self-centered ill-guided moron of another race, wouldn't it?

If we support the idea that hate crimes are "worse" than regular crimes, should we then also direct insurance companies to pay higher awards to the families of persons who were murdered in hate, as opposed to just "plain ole" murdered?

General Tsao

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cjhsa wrote:

For those who don't know, this guy/girl "Gwen" committed a sex act with not one, but two heterosexual males at the same party.

Now, I'm not saying the little pervert got what he/she deserved, certainly doesn't deserve to be murdered, but I am saying he/she was a little pervert.

IMO, allowing gender-deception to culminate in sex without informing the participants is tricky ground.

Finding out that you had sex with a guy must be a tough pill to swallow if you are no so inclined.

I used to think there should be a law against it (gender-deception and sex) but it's a bit complex.

But I think you are right to say that this is about more than just bigotry.

The boy had sex with other boys while deceiving them into thinking he was a female. I think said deception with so intimate an act has more to do with the death than bigotry.

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Was there definitely deception?

Certainly an unethical thing to do if there was.

Prolly not deserving of capital punishment, though - she said with heavy irony.

Sigh. This stuff sucks.

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Ah - I see you are definite re the deception, Craven.

Sigh again.

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dlowan wrote:

Was there definitely deception?

From the CNN article linked to in the first post:

Quote:

The four met Araujo in the summer of 2002, and Merel and Magidson had sex with her. They became suspicious after comparing notes, leading to a deadly confrontation in October 2002 at Merel's house in Newark, a San Francisco suburb.

Another woman at the house confirmed Araujo's identity by grabbing the teenager's genitals. According to testimony, Araujo was then punched, slapped, choked and beaten with a skillet, and a rope was dropped around the teenager's neck.

Magidson's attorney, Michael Thorman, presented a crime-of-passion defense, saying that the discovery by a young, drunken man that he unwittingly had had sex with another man was enough to cause him to act irrationally.

They didn't know until the moment at which the murder took place.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

They didn't know until the moment at which the murder took place.

Are you sure?

Isn't it a kind of an alibi?

Almost every male who has sex with a TV/TG knows who he's dealing with -at least that's what TV/TG prostitutes have always said. The pretense of not knowing is usually part of the game, as far as I know.

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I guess I am naive, but I'm wondering how two guys could have sex with this "girl" and not figure out that she was a he til they compared notes?

The only thing I can think of is that the "sex" was oral only, but that's not implied.

Deception is definately wrong. But not worth murder...or even a beating!

General Tsao

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cjhsa, et al,

Please, " Speak no ill of the dead." Calling Gwen a little pervert is denigrating someone who can no longer speak for herself. From what I have read about the case all participants were consenting adults, ie all over 16 years of age. Just because you or I don't indulge in group sex does not make it wrong for those who do.
I think that the six people involved wanted to have a good time. I belive that all parties concerned had been consuming alcohol and smoking pot, not a good mix for rational behavior but, no excuse for murder either. A person who is drunk, stoned or both can and may do things which they would never do when sober. Intoxication is no excuse for murder.
For people who are not trans to understand what it is like to go through life with the wrong body is nigh unto impossible. Gwen was a young woman in a male body. To her wearing a dress, using make-up and being soft and feminine was not deception, she was being herself. Five people under the influence of alcohol and pot brutally killed her, either as actual murderers or accessories before and after the fact. There is no excuse for them, not now not ever.

As for the classification of hate crime, I too have a problem with that. Killing a human being is wrong. The only time I can excuse the killing of another person is self-defense and then only as a last resort.

Due to the multiple injuries and moving the bleeding victim from the couch, so as not to soil it this blood, to the garage, a more easily cleaned area, the individuals involved appear to have the intent to kill Gwen. There is no doubt in my mind that the killing was intentional and thought out. That fits the legal definition for First Degree Murder. We have only the word of an accessory that she discovered Gwens true sex after Gwen had preform fellatio with two of the men. Is this the truth or a lie to provide possibly mitigating evidence? I was not there I do not know. What I do keep in mind is that people will lie to try and save their skins.

Now it's up to the jury. I do not envy the the job.

Sam

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Whew! I never knew that this was going to go in this direction. I thought I would be finished with legal arguments, when I hung up my badge for the last time in the '70! Shocked

Regarding deception, IMO using Craven's definition, a woman wearing a padded bra or having implants is guilty of deception. A man that has a toupee or hair implants would be guilty as well. Geeeze! Get real, people. A human life was taken. Crying or Very sad

Craven,
Are you advocating outlawing deception and sex? :wink:

Crimes against minorities are often tracked by organizations consisting of members of that community, not by police. Police go by biology in differentiating gender, not as a person expresses themselves publicly. The same is true of race as well, using information gathered by observation and occassionaly by ID. That may be why the stats are "biased".

All life is important, no matter who the person is. The loss of someone, anyone, is a loss to the person's family, friends, and community. According to my readings, Gwen was well liked by her family and her community. Gwen's mother has even petitioned the courts for a legal name change, according to reports. This, as a final gesture of acceptance of the daughter she expected when Gwen was born.

Perversion is deemed that by individuals. There is no need to call someone a pervert. Many GLBT people I know, consider heterosexuality to be a perversion. Who's right and who is wrong? If you don't like it, don't do it. That is an individual choice, as long as it's between consentual adults.

Whether considered by hate crime statutes or not, murder is wrong. Disliking a person's lifestyle is not a legitimate reason to kill a person. Killing a person for being honest about their lifestyle is no reason to kill anyone. However, murder of GLBT people seems to be of little or no consequence to most people. Their attitude is often seen.

Finally, to repeat what was stated in a previous posting by my self, until all people are treated the same and accorded the same legal rights as others, hate crime laws are needed.

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Wiyaka wrote:

Perversion is deemed that by individuals. There is no need to call someone a pervert. Many GLBT people I know, consider heterosexuality to be a perversion. Who's right and who is wrong?

I think that kind of speaks for itself. I'm outta here.

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yes - this is a difficult and emotive issue.

And it is very easy to fall into bigotry and such when discussing it. I found the apellation "pervert", for instance sickening. It is hard to tease out the issues.

However, I don't think anyone is attempting to say that the murder was justified, nor that it actually does Gwen, and others like her, a favour to avoid discussion of the realities of the situation.

Clearly, this is a disgusting murder - and bigotry, in my view, plays a part - ie in terms of the reactions of the murderers to the revelation - also, it seems, in the reactions of others - eg the woman who grabbed Gwen's genitals and exposed her.

I also think that, if one screws around drunkenly at parties that there is an element of caveat emptor.

Alongside this is a harsh reality - that stupid, irrational and explosive bigotry does exist - I also think that if one is going to have sex with someone that there are certain ethical obligations - things that ought to be divulged - (while recognizing that drunken sex at parties is not conducive to the mature consideration of ethical matters!) - eg STDs and so on.

If one is dressed as a woman and looks like a woman, then I would consider it reasonable to inform a prospective partner that one is biologically male.

Not to do so carries, in a homophobic culture, a certain risk.

I would also see that while they were all adults, sexually speaking, that it seems that INFORMED consent was not given by the murderers to sexual activity with a biological male.

Their reaction was outrageous - but I do think, were we speaking of an horriffic motor vehicle accident, that we would consider the victim had some contributory negligence in the matter.

I am aware that I will probably be seen as trying to justify the crime - I am not. Most murders occur in the presence of some sort of action on the part of the victim that helps to explain, in some way, what happened. This in no way excuses the crime - this is why we have laws - so that people in the grip of some sort of negative emotion do not just kill people - negative emotion does not excuse criminal action.

However, if Gwen had sex with a couple of blokes at a party, who did not know her biological status, then I consider that a foolish action and also an unethical one.

I would hope that, if anything useful comes out of this, that it reminds folk of the need for informed consent in such matters. And in ALL matters sexual.

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Wiyaka said: "Regarding deception, IMO using Craven's definition, a woman wearing a padded bra or having implants is guilty of deception. A man that has a toupee or hair implants would be guilty as well. Geeeze! Get real, people. A human life was taken. "

I regard that as a quite wrong statement, Wiyaka.

I think that it is pretty clear that deception about a person's biological gender is of a much greater order in terms of a sexual "contract" than deception about breast size or hair colour.

I really do not think that you can reasonably defend that statement.

I think it is also clear that Craven was not defending a notion that murder was a reasonable response to the deception.

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Wiyaka wrote:

Regarding deception, IMO using Craven's definition, a woman wearing a padded bra or having implants is guilty of deception. A man that has a toupee or hair implants would be guilty as well. Geeeze! Get real, people. A human life was taken.

Wiyaka, I am beginning to doubt your reading comprehension skills.

I spoke of gender-deception when having sex. To put it more clearly I am talking about concealing one's sex and having sex with someone who is being deceived as to one's sex.

To try to compare it to padded bras is absolutely ludicrous and nothing I said implies anything of the sort.

To say that it is comparable "using Craven's definition" is dishonest. What definition? Note: ones you imagined don't count, let's work with what I actually said.

Quote:

Craven,
Are you advocating outlawing deception and sex? :wink:

Now I begin to seriously doubt your reading comprehension skills. I never said anything about outlawing the ambiguous term "deception and sex".

I said I had considered that deceit in regard to one's sex while engaging in sexual intimacies with a deceived individual be made illegal.

I went on to say that I think there are far too many complexities for this to be realized (in simple terms I do not advocate it).

So answer your own question. Am I advocating "outlawing deception and sex"? Hint: look for my post where I say no, that's a big clue.

Quote:

Crimes against minorities are often tracked by organizations consisting of members of that community, not by police. Police go by biology in differentiating gender, not as a person expresses themselves publicly. The same is true of race as well, using information gathered by observation and occassionaly by ID. That may be why the stats are "biased".

Now you are being misleading. No, I did not say that the fabricated and distorted statistics on transgender crimes are biased because of these reasons. I claim they are biased because police do not generally collect this data and transgender groups decide to start counting using remote news reports. They often will not even have the names right and will often count people who do not even consider themselves to be transgendered.

Their efforts are understandably flawed given that they lack accurate statistics and have to compile them through the flawed means available to them.

In short the statistics that exist on this are compiled by groups of transgendered individuals running their own counts from news clippings. They often do not even know the names of the victimes or even their sexual preferences when counting.

Quote:

Whether considered by hate crime statutes or not, murder is wrong.

No kiddin'

Quote:

Disliking a person's lifestyle is not a legitimate reason to kill a person.

I agree, but let's not mislead people here. He tricked other boys into having sex while leading them to believe he was a girl.

Now only in the most inclusive definition of the term "disliking a person's lifestyle" does this become a valid discription.

Any case can be similarly distorted. Watch:

"A kills B while B was invading A's home. A did so out of a substantial dislike for B's lifestyle (home invasion)."

It's misleading to try to portray this as merely an issue of acceptance and to try to gloss over the deceit on the murdered boy's part.

Of course it's not worth a loss of a life. But that does not make this an issue of acceptance of a lifestyle.

Acceptance and tolerance are important issues that face our society. But to use a case where a victim's deceit was the primary motive to make this case only undermines it.

The murderers did not seek out someone from a lifestyle that they could not abide to kill. They killed someone who had sex with them without disclosing that he was of the same sex.

This is a very different issue from acceptance and the murder victim's deceit played more of a role than mere intolerance of lifestyle.

Quote:

Killing a person for being honest about their lifestyle is no reason to kill anyone.

I think you got the discussions mixed up. Here we are talking about someone who was killed for being dishonest and deceiving people.

Of course, this too is no justification for killing but again said killing does not justify distortion of the case into what it wasn't.

Quote:

However, murder of GLBT people seems to be of little or no consequence to most people. Their attitude is often seen.

Conversely perhaps you wish them to give it the same importance that you do and perhaps you are inclined to give it more importance than you would a quotidian murder case merely on the basis of empathy.

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Deb,

Six drunk, stoned, stupid people are a mix I would walk away from. Gwen was one of them and the youngest to boot, now she will not have the chance to learn what not to do. I just don't know if it was inexperience, stupidity or both, either way she's gone.
The Jury has heard the closing arguments the verdict is their's alone. We must wait and see.

Sam

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Sam - yeppers. It is indeed a sad and awful thing.

It is also murder.

I am sad for the murderers, too.

Sometimes I think that we are losing the human race. I wish I knew where we were supposed to be racing TO.

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Sam1951 wrote:

I think that the six people involved wanted to have a good time. I belive that all parties concerned had been consuming alcohol and smoking pot, not a good mix for rational behavior but, no excuse for murder either. A person who is drunk, stoned or both can and may do things which they would never do when sober. Intoxication is no excuse for murder.

Not a single person here has said it was justification for murder. I think you are preaching to a row of straw men (take solace in that they are listening intently).

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For people who are not trans to understand what it is like to go through life with the wrong body is nigh unto impossible. Gwen was a young woman in a male body. To her wearing a dress, using make-up and being soft and feminine was not deception, she was being herself.

In recognizing the psycological factors of the trans and claiming it is "nigh unto impossible" for non trans to understand you create an interesting question.

Should trans understand and recognize that people who are not homosexual might get a wee bit pissed into being deceived?

I mean if you claim that it's almost impossible for them to comprehend the deviant (as in deviating only) mentality of the trans then I suppose it's not too much of a stretch for the trans to realize that they'd not be pleased by the deceit.

I think it's not unreasonable to understand that while the murder is not justified the victim's lifestyle was not the only factor and that the victim's actions in relations to the murderers played a crucial part.

Quote:

Five people under the influence of alcohol and pot brutally killed her, either as actual murderers or accessories before and after the fact. There is no excuse for them, not now not ever.

I will allow the straw men who think this murder is justified to field this one. They are a tad reticent so you may need to really coax it out of them. ;-)

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Deb,

I agree on most of this,especially in this homophobic society we live in. However, as important as disclosure is prior to having intimate relations with anyone, I feel both parties should discuss their actual orientation and expectations. Going home with someone, only to find they are heterosexual has also surprised many a transgendered woman, especially after meeting, drinking and dancing the night away with "Prince Charming."

I have all the right answers, if someone asks the right questions. If transgender women calmly disclose that they are transgender, shouldn't homophobic people do the same? I personally find it one-sided, but understand, considering the possible outcomes. One ramification is date rapes that go unreported, like mine. I told the party that if he ever tried it again, I'd personally do surgery on him to prevent it from ever happening to anyone!! Evil or Very Mad

I remember a gay man that thought I was a genetic woman, until I explained the reason for my planned elective surgery (Sexual Reveral Sergery or SRS). The look on his face was priceless. Shocked

He's still a dear friend. Laughing

Fortunately, he wasn't hitting on me. I guess that's why I'm so open. What you see is me...well, maybe a touch of eyeliner, mascara and lipstick when getting all dolled up. :wink:

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Transgender murders-one a month

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