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The body body problem...(satire)

 
 
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2014 08:16 pm
What would be like for the Moon to be the Earth ?
The validity of the question can't be refuted on the principle that both the Moon and Earth lack self awareness if we axiomatically reduced or define awareness as to being informed about something or partially informed about something.

Both Moon and Earth can inform themselves gravitationally about the state of each other because they retain and absorb that information (awareness is irrelevant) but obviously being informed (containing information) of the effect gravity has from one to another is not like one being the processor of external influences the other itself is being...the gravitational information Earth has from the Moon is not what the Moon really is...hence the (false) problem is the same.

Not only that, but inorganic objects react to the information they absorb n transform that stream of external information in their own behaviour, for instance Earth has tides due to the Moon gravitational pull information. This tides result of the information imput and work as its output, processing. Remotely speaking "processing" from A input to B output could far fetched be equated to "thinking".

So what does this tells about subjectivity, or better put perspectivism, and how does that undermines the idea that Consciousness is a special case only because we have the belief awareness implies intention and free will, instead of just being an unfolding natural process on which we ride without choice ?

There is a confusion between we experiencing intention and choice with intention and choice being objectively valid states that we can justify by mere witnessing. As it seams obvious we cannot justify mind processes through mind, for the sake of avoiding a circular argument.

While it is true the experiencing of awareness and mind is unquestionable the justification of what it is per se cannot be accounted for.

This takes us to conclude the so called problem of materialism is exactly the same problem of any other substance we try to replace it with.

The mechanic connection and transfers of information from any given system to another, be it between matter and matter, or minds and matter, is the only and best proof that ultimate reality has a unitary nature in substance. The connection happens.
Perspectivism, or more commonly used wording, subjectivism, is not enough of a justification to counter this because its inherent to any object that has a distinct position in time and space or distinct in its own organization from any other object/system. Its not a specific particular problem of mind being distinct from body.

The claim that mind and body are distinct is made by minds that cannot justify their own nature from within themselves thus leaving open the question of the ultimate reality of its own nature. Its own substance cannot be explained.

Abstractly we can refer to both (mind and matter) as objects that exist in the experiencing, but since we can't specify or clarify what experiencing is per se without referring back to experiencing, we might just as well categorize both in the abstract realm of X's and Y's...

Experiencing has nothing to say on the factual nature of experiencing. It is what it is.

All experiencing HAS TRUE VALUE. What cannot have true value, or better put, that which can be relative, is not the experiencing but the conflicting trades of information interacting about third parties when seen from different angles from two distinct objects. Hence the reason of my preference for the wording "perspectivism" instead of the more humanized wording "subjectivism", which can confuse the proper investigation on the nature of the problem at hand, thus leading to false category problematizing like the classical conflation of body and mind.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 1,046 • Replies: 17
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carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Nov, 2014 10:34 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
The preference of yours is acceptable, as long as it is properly identified as valid or invalid

An equation is an experience as well but is abstract per se, and the out coming is considered as true or false.

To define matter, we have a similar method, where experiences with it can be identified as physically real or unreal.

The connection does exists, as gravity between earth and the Moon, however, the connection does not necessarily will equalize their status, it is just a bridge with its own identity between two other means which can be objective or subjective.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:29 am
@carloslebaron,
Just out of curiousity, what is your native language? (It certainly can't be English.)
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:42 am
@carloslebaron,
Are you familiar with the classical body mind problem ? Or with the famous work of Thomas Nagel "What is like to be a bat " first published in The Philosophical Review in October 1974 and later in Nagel's Mortal Questions (1979) ? Check those up for context on this thread. My little small satire here is a vague attempt to counter it, To counter Consciousness as a special case. I can resume to a couple of ideas:

"Experiencing" is undeniable but the nature of the "experiencer" its ultimate reality status, just like an Avatar, is an unknown. "Outside" or "inside" the subject are place holders for sheer ignorance...

Awareness also does not equate with control. Nor consciousness with freedom of decision.

Finally, the point I have tried to made on this small set of paragraphs going about awareness in the strict sense of, acquiring, holding, and transforming or processing information, tries to establish the relation of information exchange and processing, which is not confined specifically to organic living beings, with the body mind problem. In resume, I am convinced anything with mass, any inorganic object at a very fundamental and basic level also acquires, holds, and processes information in the sense that can raise the same questions on perspectivism the body mind problem tries to raise with subjectivism when coming from the perhaps mistaken pov of a special case for consciousness as is classically perceived, with agency and intention, in the context of assuming free will. Its is a critique on the properties of awareness, when related with control and intention, just because there is subjectivity going on. A case against the claim that subjectivity goes about the business of actively building a world from the inside out just because the information cant be traced to an outside source, bottom line, a case against creativity...well arguably it cant be traced to an inside source either...in the realm of "experiencing" the "Avatar" location problem... and a step further, a sketch critique, on the self assumed notion of ownership of experiencing and what "experiencing" itself constitutes when showing "subjectivity", or as I prefer, perspectivism, is not special nor a creative world view builder, but just action and reaction...The example provided with the gravitational relation between the Earth and the Moon as exchange and processing of information, action and reaction, is a small unpretentious attempt to make such a point a bit more clear, although perhaps unsuccessful, given the intricacies and complexities that such an old problem raises and confront us with.

PS - Excuse my "terribad" English, as most of you know I am not a native speaker. In my defence, being the case this forum has an international set of participants, "vaccination" against language assassination should be in place and expected long ago. Although naturally instinctive, it should be know by now that, provincial, parochial mentality on languaging, has no place or future on the web...
(old farts wont ever get used to the idea, not the case with younger generations of English native speakers that embrace and participate actively in the process of global fuzzing with an international web language)
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izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:44 am
@Setanta,
I think the language spoken by most sentient beings was houyhnhnm, but he had no chance with that.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 03:53 am
@izzythepush,
Now that's a horse of a different color.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 04:53 am
PS - Excuse my "terribad" English, as most of you know I am not a native speaker. In my defence, being the case this forum has an international set of participants, "vaccination" against language assassination should be in place and expected long ago.

Although naturally instinctive, it should be know by now that, provincial, parochial mentality on languaging, has no place or future on the web...
(old farts wont ever get used to the idea, not the case with younger generations of English native speakers that embrace and participate actively in the process of global fuzzing with an international web language)

My initial opening post and specially my latest comment has been edited on more then one occasion, as it usually happens, to further diminish the problem with language clarity. Please re read it if you feel the need to.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 05:11 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

PS - Excuse my "terribad" English, as most of you know I am not a native speaker.


Problems with English are excusable, as long as they're not accompanied by Holocaust denial, then it's no holds barred.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 05:13 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

PS - Excuse my "terribad" English, as most of you know I am not a native speaker.


Problems with English are excusable, as long as they're not accompanied by Holocaust denial, then it's no holds barred.

...oh sheesh...I see...K !
Just, for the sake of context since there is more then one around, don't place me in that bag...gosh who on Earth would be crazy enough to deny holocaust, a well documented historical fact ?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 05:14 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
CarlosleBaron.
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 09:09 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Just out of curiousity, what is your native language? (It certainly can't be English.)


Keep your curiosity alive, it makes your morbid mind very happy.
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 10:12 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
CarlosleBaron.


Whoa! first prosecuting and persecuting the last potential real Nazi witness to isolate him and impede him to tell the truth (with the excuse of sending to justice former mass criminals) about the existence or non-existence of gas chambers.

And now persecuting in every topic of this forum to the ones who don't buy the silly story of gas chambers killing hundreds of people everyday in rooms which always had rotten doors and no appropriate ventilation/exhaust system.

What a bunch of dumps! Lol

SCIENCE denies such a story, and I am a science lover.

So, until this fairy tale story of gas chambers is proven scientifically by independent and impartial researchers (supporters and deniers of the holocaust working together in this scientific approach) the whole assumed "evidence" of gas chambers is nothing but a hoax, a mistake, a conjecture, anything but something that have been properly verified.

Will you prosecute and persecute science because your story can't be proven true throughout the scientific method? Give me a break.

Learn to let it go, the WW2 ended 70 years ago. And, if you still feeling the wounding from that war, and still being a cry baby knocking doors imploring for compassion from others, I do enjoy how others are so stupid when falling in your fake tears.

Even Abraham cried for his wife Sarah for ONE MONTH only, and later he got married with other women and had lots of children.

You must do the same, the WW2 IS OVER, and stop fighting for a non existent war.

Stop faking to be the victim here. Instead of pity you are causing disgust!

____________________________________________

Going back to the topic.

Not in vain there are several legends of people who heard rocks talk. Not properly to say that the rock emitted a sound, but the individual was capable to perceive information given by the rock.

Perhaps the individual was nuts, perhaps was the only one around perceiving the information from the stone.

Even the bible mentions to Jacob having a dream that was transmitted by the stone he used as a pillow in the desert. He called this stone "Bethel" (house of El -El= Elohim =god). The place of the event was called Bethel as well.

The point is, that it is correct to think of everything as having the capacity of sending and receiving information. Still, the current words used to define the different phenomena are in my opinion well organized.

The word subjective defines properly what is not perceived by our known physical senses.

In your message, you prefer the use of the word perspective because implies a further action. But, we understand that the word perspective is also limited by definition to its validity.

This is just how you want to catalogue it, like evolutionist call the bat a mammal and the bible catalogues it as a bird. It is just a case of preference.

Still, with your preference, one can play easily the connection between the existing ideas, objects, bodies, etc. in the universe. The question is about building the proper structure with the purpose to find the explanation. How to apply it for us? Is it a kind of correlation or a cross correlation? Lots of paths...




0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 11:26 am
@carloslebaron,
So then, English is not your native language. I really had no doubt of that.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 06:20 pm
I envy the ability of Carlos and Fil to discuss philosophical issues in a second language.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Nov, 2014 09:37 pm
@JLNobody,
I know for a fact you are not an envious man... Wink
...my English is still terribad but I guess it was way worse in the past hopefully...
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2014 12:05 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Your English has progressed remarkably.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2014 04:15 am
Carloslebaron is not discussing philosophy. He is simply attempting to forward his prejudices, and tarting them up (in execrable English) with a word salad which attempts (and fails) to sound authoritative. Basically, he is a bigoted theist with pretensions to an intelligence he has never displayed.
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Nov, 2014 10:36 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Carloslebaron is not discussing philosophy. He is simply attempting to forward his prejudices, and tarting them up (in execrable English) with a word salad which attempts (and fails) to sound authoritative. Basically, he is a bigoted theist with pretensions to an intelligence he has never displayed.


Setanta.

I will tell you this... yes, I'm a mother f**ker, and I have no mercy when idiots pretend to be geniuses, still, I can discuss and find more possibilities in philosophy that you can ever imagine.

Tell me, what have you discovered in this life, that is worthy to be at least considered?

What have you reached by your own or with a team, to say that you have participated and found something new?

I do have "The Perceptional Law", MY LAW (yes, I'm arrogant when I want to be one) and this LAW says that we humans, using with our senses, using our instruments, using whatever we can use, we are just capable to perceive the present, solely the present, and nothing more but the present.

With this Perceptional Law, the whole theories of science which consider that we can "perceive far away objects as they were in their past", such ideas are obsolete, invalid, nonsenses.

And I tell you more, because this MY LAW is a law and not a theory, you can insult me, you can talk trash about me, you can laugh, you can ignore me, you can do whatever you want against my person, but surely you can't deny that MY LAW it does rule YOUR perception of the universe.

Any attempt from your part to discredit MY LAW will be in vain, because The Perceptional Law rules, surely it does.

More than "proud" I'm happy that no flaws can be found with The Perceptional Law, and that no exceptions are allowed.

We do perceive the present of the universe regardless of distance, speed of objects, whatever. When you are capable to see a far away star, is because that star is right there, in that location, in its present status, simultaneously with your present status and location.

Do you want to discuss about it, just both of us in another topic in these forums and see how much you can do to discredit MY LAW? ah?!

Listen, I can make you eat dirt with The Perceptional Law, and no master in physics, philosophy, psychology, whatever will help you enough for you to invalidate The Perceptional Law.

Don't use this topic to continue discussing or mentioning anything about The Perceptional Law, I did mentioned it in order to tell you that what you have said about me, it appears to be envy from your part rather than you considering me worthless.

I enjoy patience as well, for this reason I read how many like you say trash about me in these forums, and I just let them do it, after all, there is an old saying (when translated in English can be said), ""Let the dogs bark, the caravan should keep moving ahead".

Oh, and one more thing, when people are thirsty of knowledge, language is not a barrier.

__________________________________________

And about this topic.

The correlation of everything existing in the universe is not something new.

And about the idea of "objects having a kind of life" there is even a hypothesis that planet earth itself is "alive", with the meaning that it has a kind of life as we do. Ancient people called it "Mother earth".

I remember that the magazine Discover published a decade ago an article about this hypothesis of planet earth as a living thing, and why it exist such a possibility.

If the earth is not inanimate as a rock, then the rock itself is not inanimate as well, and the moon is not inanimate, and so forth.

These ideas are nothing new to put on the table, but are good food to serve and swallow.

Fil is getting into it with a different angle of view, and this make the topic more interesting.

Hope to see Fil can get onto something.






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