Death Penalty and Religious Ramifications

Forums: Spirituality And Religion, Capital Punishment
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First my sincere apologies for several things.

Firstly, I don't think its a good idea to raise such a sensitive and serious subject on a Memorial Day weekend but I just could not resist.

Secondly, its possible that death penalty had been discussed here before but I thought, that the link I will post here might want you to put the two-Bible and death penalty-on a different perspective.

Lastly, I don't mean to hurt any particular individual, group or religious beliefs. My basic premise to post the subject is to share something I found interesting and probably valuable.

I look forward to your comments on the same.
Overview:
The Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) said a great deal about the death penalty. The Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible) required this punishment for many transgressions, both civil and religious. Death was usually by stoning, although one crime required that women be executed by being burned alive. Few executions were actually performed. The court procedures required overwhelming evidence of guilt before a person could be executed. For example, there had to be two eye-witnesses before the accused could be given the death penalty. There were also instances where God murdered individuals for various activities: Onan avoided getting his former sister-in-law pregnant by practicing birth control. Lot's wife looked back at her city when it was being destroyed, etc.

The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) do not contain new codes of law which govern the death penalty. However, there were many references to capital punishment in the Bible and in non-canonical literature which indicate that the Hebrew Scripture's codes were still being applied during the time of Jesus.

Two conflicting penalties for murder in the book of Genesis
Both instances of murder refer to an era that preceded the 613 commands of the Mosaic law code.

The first mention of the appropriate punishment for a murder is in Genesis 4:11-15.

"And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;...a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him." (KJV)

Adam and Eve's sons were Cain, a farmer, and Abel, a shepherd. Each brought the best that they had had produced as a sacrifice to God. God accepted Abel's sacrifice of meat but rejected Cain's grain offering. Cain's resultant disappointment turned to anger; he killed his brother. God cursed Cain for the murder and sent him to wander the earth. God also put a mark on Cain's body so that nobody who saw him would be motivated to kill him. If anyone killed Cain for the murder of his brother, that person would be very severely punished. Here, banishment and exile is the penalty for murder; capital punishment is specifically prohibited.

The first mention of capital punishment as a penalty for murder is in Genesis 9:6:

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (KJV)

This passage regards the killing of a human as an offense against God because humans were made in the image of God, both male and female. Unlike the previous passage which required that the murderer be merely exiled, this verse required the murderer to be killed.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/exe_bibl.htm

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According to Columbia University study, there is almost 68% error rate in capital cases. This rate is subject of open debate as is demonstrated in the undermentioned link:

http://www.christianity.com/CC/article/1,1183,PTID1000%7CCHID%7CCIID132640,00.html

From the above link, I quote:

"More often than not, though, arguments against the death penalty are based on religious grounds by professing Christians who believe it violates the will of God. The only problem with this reasoning is that the strongest pronouncements in favor of the death penalty are found in the Bible, which tells us that God instituted the death penalty through His covenant with Noah (Gen. 9) and made it the centerpiece of His judicial system in Israel under the Mosaic law (Ex. 21). While the sixth commandment is literally translated as "thou shalt not murder," killing was justified under the law in specific circumstances (such as capital crime and just war).

Many Christians who oppose capital punishment cite the passage of Scripture in which Jesus refused to condemn a woman caught in adultery and then confronted the religious leaders of that time about their own darkened hearts (John 8). Yet Jesus gave no indication that He intended to overturn all of the many Old Testament commands to execute capital criminals. He merely exercised a divine right as God in human flesh to pardon one woman (as God had pardoned adulterers King David and Gomer in the Old Testament without overturning His capital punishment laws).

Indeed, Jesus Himself declared that He came into the world to fulfill the law, not to destroy or overrule it (Matt. 5:17-19). He also endorsed the capital punishment laws instituted by Moses and criticized Israel's leaders for subverting them (Matt. 15:3-9, Mk. 7:8-13)."

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Personally, I believe in capital punishment, but only for the most heinous cases, where the guilt of the person is absolutely certain. In this I mean serial killings, rape-murder and torture-murder. IMO, these cases need to be corroborated by D.N.A. evidence, which was lacking in the past, and probably accounted for the level of mistakes.

As far as the Bible is concerned, I perceive that work as a historical record, authored by the ancients. Our society is nothing at all like that described in the Bible. (we no longer stone people, etc.) Therefore, as we might want to look to the Bible for historical background, IMO, there is no reason to even consider the Bible when dealing with modern problems.

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Phoenix, in other words are you trying to say that The Bible's 'role'in death penalty is irrelevant?

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ketamyne, hi!

Did I say something that you disagree with?

Can you post your feelings about it right here?

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Personally, I believe in capital punishment, but only for the most heinous cases, where the guilt of the person is absolutely certain. In this I mean serial killings, rape-murder and torture-murder.

But do you think these murders are worse than "normal" murders - I don't think that accounts to the relatives of the victim(s), this way of thinking. What I think, is that capital punishment should be forbidden. As I see it, you lower yourself to the level of the killer. But discussing this will probably mean another endless discussion :wink: . And meanwhile, I'm discussing it...I'm setting the wrong example here.

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Quote:

But do you think these murders are worse than "normal" murders

Yes I do. For instance, lets consider a person who robs a store, and a person is killed during the robbery. Although that is a horrible crime, I don't think that it deserves the death penalty. A person who abducts someone, tortures him/her in cold blood for his own sick pleasure, and kills him, IMO, does not deserve to live.

I think that the difference has to do with intent. I think that sometimes the line is fuzzy, so each case needs to be evaluated on its own.

For instance, I think that Charles Manson should have been put to death. As I understand it, he was slated to be executed, but then they changed the law in his state.

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But my point is Phoenix: for us bystanders there is a difference. But will there also be a difference in the eyes of the victims relatives?

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Quote:

But will there also be a difference in the eyes of the victims relatives?

No, but I believe that what relatives think is not an issue. Relatives and friends can never be an issue. If it were, then there would be different standards for murderers of people with large, loving families, as opposed to a victim is all alone in the world. And that, to me would not be justice.

If it were, then the execution would be for revenge. I do not believe in execution for revenge. What I do think, is that there are some people who are so evil, their acts so terrible, that they have lost their right to live in a civilized society. It is a waste of funds and personnel to maintain criminals who have sunk to the deepest levels of depravity.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Relatives and friends can never be an issue.

But it's all about relatives and friends. 99% of the people I spoke who were pro-capital punishment used the phrase "and what about the relatives and friends of the victim(s)?" to justify capital punishment. And it's all about revenge. We want to take these killers - with whom I, just to make sure, have absolutely no sympathy with - their most precious thing they have - their life -, so we can take revenge. I do think personally we should take revenge. But not by using capital punishment.

Phoenix32890 wrote:

What I do think, is that there are some people who are so evil, their acts so terrible, that they have lost their right to live in a civilized society. It is a waste of funds and personnel to maintain criminals who have sunk to the deepest levels of depravity.

I do agree with you, except one thing: who are we to decide when someone has lost his right to live? Even if this person has done soo much wrong, killed so many people, killed children in a horrible way, shattered the lives of parents and children, shocked everyone...then, and this is one of those opinions I can not explain, I still do not think we can decide that the person has to die. In my eyes, it is civilized to let the person live, and punish him by letting him live till he dies 50 years later...in captivity, with knowing he will never, never be free again.

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Quote:

But it's all about relatives and friends. 99% of the people I spoke who were pro-capital punishment used the phrase "and what about the relatives and friends of the victim(s)?" to justify capital punishment.

I must be in the 1%. To me, a person torturing and killing a homeless person, with no family or friends, has committed the same level of crime as if the victim were a family man with a wife and many children and grandchildren. If relatives enter into the equation, than we are ascribing differential values to people of varying circumstances, and that is not equitable.

Quote:

In my eyes, it is civilized to let the person live, and punish him by letting him live till he dies 50 years later...in captivity, with knowing he will never, never be free again.

Yes, but why does society need to support such a person for fifty years?

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As far as MY religion goes, I think CP is against Christ's teachings. For this reason, I changed my mind against CP.

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Well, and I guess I should say--once I started looking at CP critically, other good reasons, such as those discussed above (an imperfect, and biased judicial system) also contributed to the firmness of my decision.

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I agree with Pheonix capital punishment is justified in instances of premeditated murder. The bible both Hebrew and Christian, are in the main fictional works and place no restrictions on capital punishment. In fact it supports it.

Quote:

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (KJV)

This passage regards the killing of a human as an offense against God because humans were made in the image of God, both male and female.

It would seem to me rather condeming capital punishment supports it. Read what it says not what you would like it to say.

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We sorta threw out the Old Testament, and pay attention to Jesus' teachings...

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Did Jesus speak against capital punishment? Since I am not a follower of Jesus I know little of what was attributed to him. However, I do know he was a Jew and followed the teachings of the Old Testament. I also understand that neither Christianity nor the new testament existed at that time nor are there any of his writings in existence. Therefore how can a stricture against capital punishment be attributed to him. That I believe is of recent vintage, very recent.

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Fair question, au.

I don't think Jesus made a speech condemning CP---I just took quite a lesson from 'turn the other cheek' and moreso from his saving a woman, who was about to receive the lawful punishment of stoning due to adultery.

Would I turn the other cheek--I'm almost certain I wouldn't. But, I did amend my stance on CP.

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As usual, Phoenix' position is completely reasonable.

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au1929 wrote:

Did Jesus speak against capital punishment?

Well, it's possible Jesus was just about to issue a major policy statement regarding capital punishment, but he was prevented from doing so by the Romans.

Really, I can't quite understand Christians who support the death penalty when Jesus himself was unjustly condemned to death. Maybe Jesus didn't say anything about capital punishment, but his death should have at least served as an instructive object lesson.

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True.

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