Is it possible ...

I have more difficulty understanding how someone can be a conservative and a Christian; Jesus sounds pretty liberal to me sometimes.

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As far as I get Christianity... there is no centralized "Church" with one specific belief system - if you believe in Jesus, you're Christian. Unless you're also Jewish, but that's another story, I think.

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I guess, rufio, that this is actually another debate. From that perspective, and from last edgar's post it is actually possible to be Christian and homosexual.
I was more having Christian CHURCH in mind - as it is today and what it proclaims. If we are going from that angle I also think that Jesus wouldn't be member of Christian Church today Very Happy

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Any social worker will tell you that most child molesters are heterosexual.

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MyOwnUsername wrote:

If you disagree with some things Christian Church is teaching then you are not Christian. It's not like political voting....you are either Christian and following everyone that is preached and/or teached, or you are not Christian.

I am not sure if you were intending to be funny, but that post sure made me chuckle. Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Now the god of the old testament, he for sure was against it. Matter of fact he did not like a whole bunch of stuff that we would not give second thought to today.

Edgar already made that point earlier, but I have always been a fan of the way Mark Twain dismissed the crapola of the old testament in his article Bible Teaching and Religious Practice.

Mark Twain wrote:

During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.

Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. Who discovered that there was no such thing as a witch -- the priest, the parson? No, these never discover anything. At Salem, the parson clung pathetically to his witch text after the laity had abandoned it in remorse and tears for the crimes and cruelties it has persuaded them to do. The parson wanted more blood, more shame, more brutalities; it was the unconsecrated laity that stayed his hand. In Scotland the parson killed the witch after the magistrate had pronounced her innocent; and when the merciful legislature proposed to sweep the hideous laws against witches from the statute book, it was the parson who came imploring, with tears and imprecations, that they be suffered to stand.

There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but" the texts that authorized them remain."

Oh yes, "The texts that authorized them remain." What words of wisdom. To my way of thinking, the greatest challenge facing people of faith is how to clean up their text books and still have a reason to call it of divine origin.

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I'm not trying to redefine Christianity, username, that's just what I've heard said about it. I've never been Christian, and I probably never will be, so I've never made a habit of studying all of its various definitions.

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mesquite wrote:

MyOwnUsername wrote:
If you disagree with some things Christian Church is teaching then you are not Christian. It's not like political voting....you are either Christian and following everyone that is preached and/or teached, or you are not Christian.

I am not sure if you were intending to be funny, but that post sure made me chuckle. Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Now the god of the old testament, he for sure was against it. Matter of fact he did not like a whole bunch of stuff that we would not give second thought to today.

Edgar already made that point earlier, but I have always been a fan of the way Mark Twain dismissed the crapola of the old testament in his article Bible Teaching and Religious Practice.

Mark Twain wrote:
During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.

Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. Who discovered that there was no such thing as a witch -- the priest, the parson? No, these never discover anything. At Salem, the parson clung pathetically to his witch text after the laity had abandoned it in remorse and tears for the crimes and cruelties it has persuaded them to do. The parson wanted more blood, more shame, more brutalities; it was the unconsecrated laity that stayed his hand. In Scotland the parson killed the witch after the magistrate had pronounced her innocent; and when the merciful legislature proposed to sweep the hideous laws against witches from the statute book, it was the parson who came imploring, with tears and imprecations, that they be suffered to stand.

There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but" the texts that authorized them remain."

Oh yes, "The texts that authorized them remain." What words of wisdom. To my way of thinking, the greatest challenge facing people of faith is how to clean up their text books and still have a reason to call it of divine origin.

So what exactly do you have against gay witches? Just kidding... :wink: Remove the politics from religion and you end up with plain old common sense.

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Re: Is it possible ...

CerealKiller wrote:

Is it possible to be gay and a Christian, and is it possible to be a liberal and a Christian ?

History has taught us that it is possible to be damn near anything and still be a Christian; a celebrated one at that. You can be a racist (that was popular throughout Christian history), you can be a sexist (also very fashionable), you can be a merciless conquoror (see: conquistadors, crusadors, etc, etc, etc), you can be a liar who exploits hapless people for their money (see: televangelists), you can be a pedophile (apparently it's all the rage nowadays), and the list goes on. Almost all of these diverse groups have elaborate justifications for thier acts that are supported by biblical texts. So, I'm sure homosexuals will have no problem joining the club should they wish to do so.

Quote:

and is it possible to be a liberal and a Christian ?

The part where liberals tend to predicate thier worldview on, you know, reality and the world itself, tends to get in the way of religious delusion. But I'm sure there are ways around this.

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Hear, hear Smile

I agree with ILZ completely, I was just looking on the matter from completely opposite perspective. From this point - sure, you can be Hitler and Christian.

From another point - no, you can't be something that Christian Church today is condemning and calling yourself member of Christian Church. Fact that in this case majority of christian priests are not real Christians as well is different subject Smile

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If you can be a Hitler AND a christian, what does being a christian mean? It must mean belonging to a "christian" church, but that certainly has little to do with living as Jesus the Christ recommended. Nietzsche might have been right when he said that "There has only been one christian, and he died on the cross." (paraphrase)

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So his beef wasn't really with Christianity after all then? I never got his ramblings to make much sense....

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Salaams

What it seems that liberal Christians are trying to push for is a "Christianity" that is tantamount to secular humanism, not first century Judaism that Jesus followed. "Moderate" Christianity might have no problem with homosexuality, but Christianity itself holds no room for it.

--Ibn

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Hello Ibn,
What's opinion and attitude about homosexualism in modern islamic countries? I mean, such as Qatar, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, etc...

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MyOwnUsername wrote:

Hello Ibn,
What's opinion and attitude about homosexualism in modern islamic countries? I mean, such as Qatar, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, etc...

I'm almost sure they oppose it.

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This question has to be a joke. Who would honestly ask this crap? Obviously you can be Christian and liberal. In fact, a true Christian would obviously be liberal on most issues. I've never in fact believed that there are many true Christians among the social conservatives in this country. Just folks who are scared of their own shadow.

There is obviously nothing against gays in Christianity. How could there be? Gays are born gay and Jesus never spoke a word against homosexuality anyway. Anything else a fat Baptist half drunk preacher rambles on about is just that much hot air. Those folks are, obviously, to be laughed at.

To say that Christianity holds no room for homosexuality is as big a joke as those that would say it. The only form of Christianity against gays is the modern church that bears no resemblance to any teachings of Christ to begin with. If the church cared at all what Jesus thought, there would be women leading the church, the bible would have about 80 more books in it, and NOBODY would speak in the name of Christ against any of His groups of people, like gays.

A true follower of Christ is, of course, a Christian. It is the 'church' of today, led by the robed fool in Rome and the fundamentalist wackjobs here in the States that are in no way Christians.

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