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Why is the greenhouse gas theory completely wrong?

 
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2014 03:15 pm
quahog says:
Quote:
You really don't even know what I am talking about


Well, duh. It's not as if you've told anybody what you're talking about/ Are you talking about the greenhouse effect, which has been known and documented for almost a century and a half now? Are you talking about anthropogenic climate change, which has been known and documented for four decades or so? Are you talking about the loon who says there is no such thing as the greenhouse effect because greenhouses work because glass holds convective air currents in and so the greenhouse heats up, but there is no glass analogue in the atmosphere to hold the heat in (never realizing that it is used as a metaphor for the heating effect, tho no one claims the mechanism is precisely the same as a terrestrial greenhouse? Whichever it may be you;re talking about, you are, as usual, full of crap.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2014 11:04 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
Are you talking about the greenhouse effect, which has been known and documented for almost a century and a half now?


yep. it is very wrong!
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2014 11:58 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Quehoniaomath wrote:

Quote:
Are you talking about the greenhouse effect, which has been known and documented for almost a century and a half now?


yep. it is very wrong!


let's tell the alleged experts to lets us know when they think they have figured it out, and to not bother us till they they get there MKAy?

Quote:
Now a team at Wyoming University has found that carbon dioxide stays in leaves longer than previously thought, acting as a fertiliser and accelerating plant growth.
“The terrestrial biosphere may absorb more CO2 than previously thought,” said lead author Professor Ying Sun, of Wyoming University.

The scientists say it explains why levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are not rising as quickly as models predict.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/11159926/Global-warming-plants-may-absorb-more-carbon-dioxide-than-previously-thought.html
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 12:06 am
@hawkeye10,
Nope, we have to stop relying on the so called experts! That is one reason we are in this mess to begin with!

Tip:read: Zbigniew Brzeziński. Why? Then you understand why we rely so much on experts!
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 09:42 am
Brzenzki was a political adviser to Richard Nixon. He was no scientist and has no expertize in science. He is complely irrelevant. And you still have not provided any evidence for why the established facts are wrong, just another in your factless screed about why we shouldn't accept anything anyone says. So why should we believe anything you say? You're a total maroon, quahog.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 10:07 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
Brzenzki was a political adviser to Richard Nixon. He was no scientist and has no expertize in science. He is complely irrelevant. And you still have not provided any evidence for why the established facts are wrong, just another in your factless screed about why we shouldn't accept anything anyone says. So why should we believe anything you say? You're a total maroon, quahog.


Well, you very clearly haven't read any book of him! That is for sure!

Just start with 'the grand chess board'! and your life will never be the same!
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 10:19 am
and absolutely no intention of ever wasting my time on him. he was completley misguided in advising presidents. no reason to think he's ever gotten any better.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 10:31 am
@hawkeye10,
Your cite seems to be a journalist's partial misstatement, since that is not what scientists in fact have been saying all along. We know IN FACT what CO2 we produce every year, because we know how much oil, coal, natural gas (i.e. fossil fuel) we mine, drill, etc., every year. We know FOR A FACT how much Co2 its combustion will produce, and there are known carbon sinks (plant material, oceans, geological features) which suck some of it up. But there was more CO2 going into the atmosphere than they could account for, but less than we produced, so all along they have said there were some unknown carbon sinks that must account for the discrepancy, and the models were based on THE ACTUAL RISE OF CO2. Now it looks like some of the discrepancy that was known all along and has been factored into the models has been accounted for.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 10:36 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
discrepancy that was known all along and has been factored into the models has been accounted for.

And yet the journalist says that the models have been wrong, and that this new study give clue to why they have been wrong. For now I will take this journalists version of events over yours.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 10:44 am
@hawkeye10,
It's not my version, it's the IPCC's and the scientists'.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 10:54 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

It's not my version, it's the IPCC's and the scientists'.


Until/unless you show up with evidence it is your opinion only.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 11:09 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

We know IN FACT what CO2 we produce every year, because we know how much oil, coal, natural gas (i.e. fossil fuel) we mine, drill, etc., every year. We know FOR A FACT how much Co2 its combustion will produce, and there are known carbon sinks (plant material, oceans, geological features) which suck some of it up.
Using capital letters and the repeated word FACT doesn't change the fact that we don't know exactly how much carbon was released in transporting and burning focal fuels: we have some fairly good estimates, but we don't know exactly how much. Further we don't have reliable measures of the methane released to the atmosphere by natural processes - it degrades fairly quickly into CO2 as well.
MontereyJack wrote:
But there was more CO2 going into the atmosphere than they could account for, but less than we produced, so all along they have said there were some unknown carbon sinks that must account for the discrepancy, and the models were based on THE ACTUAL RISE OF CO2. Now it looks like some of the discrepancy that was known all along and has been factored into the models has been accounted for.


I think you should reread this section. It appears to involve some contradictions.

The news reports in question referred to higher-than-expected uptake of CO2 than expected y plant life, suggesting that there were nonlinear effects greater than those previously estimated in the response of green plants to the increased concentrations of available CO2 in the atmosphere. I can't attest to the accuracy of the reports, but do recognize the nonlinearity involved and the difficulties modelers face in trying to estimate them.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 11:12 am
@hawkeye10,
I agree with you on this one.

oeps this one wasn't even for me!


Lucky me! Wink
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 01:41 pm
@georgeob1,
Even more significant than computer modelling problems is that the scientists know about as much about how the global climate regulation systems work as they do human matabolism, which is to say not much. How many times have these folks completely changed their mind about what good blood cholesterol is and how to get there,? Half dozen maybe? The UK just had a big blow up because an advisory panel recommended more than doubling the number of people on cholesterol drugs but had to back down when heretic scientists pointed out that there is no science to back up their recommendation. Then there is that whole business about eggs, once said to be killers that we need to stop eating because they have a lot of cholesterol, now the "experts," are back to saying that they are nutrient rich and we should eat them.

I gotta figure that the planets systems are even more complicated than are the systems of one of its species. And we have been till recently put a lot more effort into understanding how the body works than how the earth works. I put fery little confidence into current theories of how the earth works, certainly not enough to completly change how we live on the say-so of the minders.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 04:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
We have a pretty good (but crude in some areas) record of the earth's geological history, but no adequate model for the changes it has undergone. We can develop some plausible after-the-fact explanations for the major changes that have occurred (mass extinctions, ice ages, warm periods, etc), but, even there, new evidence emerges that alters previous throries. We aren't even close to the ability to start with the estimated conditions in one geological age and using that, deduce the changes known to have occurred after it. That means we don't have the ability to reliably calculate a future state based on current conditions. Indeed reliable predictions may not be possible, owing to the problem of sensitive dependence on iniotial conditions that plagues weather predictions.

That said, the occurrence of a, probably geologically significant, increase in the Earth's atmospheric CO2 concentration naturally gives rise to serious investigation about what may be the consequences of it. The result, of course has been a lot of unprovable speculation about what may happen based on models of unproven merit in a situation that simply doesn't (so far) permit accurate predictions.

The interest of ambitious investigators in their own efforts to make such predictions is understandable, and the potential stakes for humanity are indeed high. However we are left with the unanswerable question of whether the problem is worth fixing. With current technologies the cost of transitioning to emission free sources of energy - without using nuclear power - is enormous. Tripling the cost of energy will have profound and lasting effects on human welfare and even population. If we take the advice and demands of the global warming zealots, there is a 100% probability of suffering these consequences, while we can't really be sure of the cost of doing nothing.

Beyond that the question appears to be moot in that, given their overwhelming committment to economic development, there is little chance of getting China or India to go along with any such program. With that restriction there is little the Western world can do to make a meaningful difference in whatever might unfold - no matter what draconian measures we may take.

New technologies, nuclear Fusion and/or a solar powered version of photosynthesis that produces free hydrogen, might do the job, but both are likely several decades away. I believe the best approach is to attenpt to buy that time. Additional use of fission nuclear reactors and natural gas as a replacement for coal might do the job while containing the growth in our emissions. That, however, is strangely unacceptable to the AGW zealots.

Unfortunately, the debate today doesn't permit such rational approaches.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 04:11 pm
@georgeob1,
Another example of how little these experts actually know

Quote:
Methane seeps deep under the world's oceans may provide a previously-unrecognized sink for greenhouse gases, according to a new study. The greenhouse gas leaks from seafloors in these regions, leading to the buildup of rocks that were long considered dead.

Carbonate rocks on the seafloor provide a home for vast varieties of microbes which consume some of the gases contributing to worldwide climate change.
Many microbes in seafloor sediments are capable of ingesting methane, a powerful contributor to global warming. This effect is especially pronounced in layers where sulphate ions are being pulled in from water. The process helps fuel the metabolisms of the tiny creatures, according to researchers.
These biological actions raise the pH of surrounding water, and the alkaline environment causes carbonate ions to form calcium carbonate, commonly known as chalk. New research on methane seeps in waters near California, Oregon and Costa Rica shows biological material in these deposits. Samples were collected from more than 2,000 feet beneath the surface of the water, utilizing both robotic and human-operated submersibles.
The carbonate mounds under water provide a base for sponges and corals that make their homes on the rock. These can soon become populated by fish, crabs, clams and other aquatic lifeforms.
Carbonate deposits were bathed in water containing methane including carbon-14, a radioactive form of the element. Researchers discovered the substance was taken up by the samples, suggesting microorganisms within the rock were still alive.
Global warming studies have, so far, largely failed to account for uptake of greenhouse gases by these microscopic creatures, the study reports. Climatologists were long aware that these deposits acted as a sink for carbon, but the new study reveals these deposits likely have a greater effect on climate change than previously estimated.


Read more: http://www.techtimes.com/articles/17973/20141015/methane-ingesting-microbes-inhabit-deep-sea-sink-for-greenhouse-gases.htm#ixzz3Gj3aoCCN
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 04:15 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Beyond that the question appears to be moot in that, given their overwhelming committment to economic development, there is little chance of getting China or India to go along with any such program

or Africa, or most of Europe, Or russia, or the middle East, or......


Without global government there is no way to make any costly efforts to confront global warming work. Those who do spend on this will have to sacrifice other spending, for little global benefit. How much are the feel goods and bragging rights worth? Not as much as this will cost I think and so long as we have a global economic system national expenditures on global warming will effective be acts of economic disarmament.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 04:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
SAFETY! SAFETY! SAFETY!

The elites time and time again claim this as the justification for their needing to be in charge and making us mind (EAT WHAT WE TELL YOU! HAVE SEX LIKE WE TELL YOU!). Any connections between reality and this claim are purely coincidental.

Carlin nailed it on the subject of the safety of the planet.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 05:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
So what happens if the planet gets warmer? Sea level goes up I think, but we proved with Amsterdam and Venice that we can engineer solutions if we want to pay to build them. So we save the cities that are worth saving and let the ocean have the rest, no big deal.

"Next!"

Weather patterns will shift, but they always shift. So we move the couple of percent of the population needed to grow our food around to the current best spots. We can handle that no problem.

"NEXT!"


Is there a next? Will it get harder to grow overall? Will we have worse storms? Will this cause us to loose the battle with the microbes? I dont know and I dont think anyone else does either.

I dont know of any logical reason that we would even attempt to change global warming considering how little we know and how expensive(money and lifestyle) any sizable effort would be. So far Global warming may be mostly an excuse for the bossy ones to run around telling us what to do...Cause they need to " save" us dont ya know.



georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2014 05:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
I think it's likely a mistake to either exaggerate or minimize the potential consequences. We simply don't know.

We do know that several hundred thousand years ago the Sahara desert was a well watered forest, likely a consequence of a shift in the prevailing trade winds. There have been about three ice ages in North America. We also know that in recorded human history (during the medieval warm period) the Norsemen were growing barley at Scoresby Sound on the East coast of Greenland, at a latitude of about 65 deg., and that Europeans were growing wheat on the North German Plain until the 18th century. All that ended with the "mini ice age" of the 18th and early 19th centuries which is suspected to have been caused by an unexplained reduction in solar flare/sunspot activity (the so called Maunder Minimum).
 

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