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"Americans tortured Iraqi to death"

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2004 07:21 pm
Quote:
While genuine mistreatment of prisoners should never be condoned or go unpunished, there are constructive and destructive ways to handle the situation, especially when we have troops on the ground. It's time now for everybody to step back and let the courts do their job.


Bullshit. Trumping any of the 'truisms' fox has claimed above is another...that a military or a civil administration guilty of bad stuff will attempt to deny, obscure, obstruct, bully or suppress the release to the public of the full nature of what has gone on.

And this case is a classic example of exactly that. It is laughable to assume that, had not this information been released by non-government institutions/individuals, that there would have been anything like a similar pressure to find out the what and the who or to correct this bloody horror.

The proper role of citizens and press is NOT to just accept the claims of innocuous intent and clean hands. The proper role is to be sceptical and to investigate and to keep at it.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2004 07:27 pm
Actually, I think this horror illustrates something I really like about the US - the culture of openness.

I honestly cannot imagine such a story about Oz troops, for instance, getting out so fast and increasingly fully with such a fearless press. Sure, people want to muzzle things - it is hard and tough having this stuff come out.

But, out it comes.

Good on you America, I say.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2004 07:44 pm
I agree with you, Dlowan. An actual good blip in a desolate line graph.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2004 08:20 pm
I have no problem with it being reported. I would have a lot more respect for the press if it had been reported in January when they first knew of it and I would think it proper that they would have explained that the command put a stop to it then.

That they waited until they had wonderfully inflammatory photos and then portrayed it like this was something they had just uncovered smacks of yellow journalism at its worst.

And yes it does hurt the troops.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2004 08:26 pm
Deb and Oss

You are exactly right. It IS a good showing.

It is a demonstration of a peoples' civility and real compassion and a demonstration of the values vested in the institutions through codes of conduct and through the laws and courts. That Americans are aghast at what has happened, and that Americans wish causes to be ascertained publicly such that similar behavior and values are limited in the future. That's all very good indeed.

But it took a free press which has no partisan allegiance to the military or administration for the information to have come to the public eye so that that public could bring pressure to bear. And that is an essential factor in this story, and in any democracy.

So Fox's suggest that enough is enough just doesn't cut the mustard.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2004 09:21 pm
Enough is enough for whom? As you say, blatham, in a democracy we should be able to discuss any issue that is relevant to the citizens of this country. Trying to stifle information is not democracy.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 02:54 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Sofia wrote:
You know very well that I don't think anyone died of sensory deprivation.

Never said you did.


This is getting ridiculous. Never said you did? Hello:

cicerone imposter wrote:
It's very interesting that people like Sofia thinks that the 37 deaths resulted only from universally utilized "sensory deprivation."


<scratches head>

I strongly suspect I have a very different attitude towards the whole abuse outrage than Sofia, but you're just all over the place.

Oh, and Sofia aint no nincompoop. However interesting a word that may be.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 03:02 pm
dlowan wrote:
Actually, I think this horror illustrates something I really like about the US - the culture of openness.

I honestly cannot imagine such a story about Oz troops, for instance, getting out so fast and increasingly fully with such a fearless press. Sure, people want to muzzle things - it is hard and tough having this stuff come out.

But, out it comes.

Good on you America, I say.


I wish I could share the sentiment - always good to be able to throw something positive in the mix. But I have a problem buying it.

First off, like Foxfyre said, the story did appear back in January, and sank without a trace. Apparently, they either werent brave enough, or interested enough to wanna find out about it.

All credits go to 60 minutes for then coming out with the story again in a way that noone could ignore. Yet they almost did, again - press reporting on the story was strangely subdued for about another week, even as it splashed straight on to the frontpages here.

Perhaps it was the splash abroad that forced the US media to finally catch up - perhaps they were just slow. Perhaps there was some state-of-denial thing going on, perhaps a recitence to rouse the wrath of the administration - or, more likely, to offend the audience/readership.

Granted, not that the Dutch press was very fast in picking up on the Srebrenica story coupla years back ...
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 03:17 pm
nimh, It takes more than sensory deprivation to result in the 37 deaths. I said sofia "thinks" not she said.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 03:27 pm
I posted this yesterday, but it seems it needs repeating.
*****************
sofia's quote, "We know isolation, food restrictions, nudity, cold blasts of water...happen when an army is desperate to get information about impending attacks... If you know, or strongly suspect, a detainee has information that can save innocent life--how far do you go to get that information? I think its a pertinent question." No it's not. Do you realize how many Arab-Americans were detained in the US becaues they are Arabs? They lost all their civil rights in this country; no contact with the outside, no attorneys to represent them, nor anybody in this country to help them. When you start off wrong, nothing that follows is right; even when people think it might save lives. That goes ditto with prisoners in those camps in Iraq; they were not charged with any wrongdoing.

The question should not be "how far," but our policy should be "never."
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 04:03 pm
I don't think, nor did I infer, that anyone died of sensory deprivation.

I think it's a bad idea to throw something like that out about someone. It can lead to all manner of sidebar nastiness--as we have seen.

I was trying to bring out a discussion about the realities of war and varying interrogation techniques, and see where members stand on the issue. The conversation was thwarted by members such as CI, who seemed to think admission of wide-spread torture was the same as approval of same.

Will not continue to push for the discussion.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 04:12 pm
Sofia, In all fairness, I responded in a unreasonable manner to your quary. As a minority that have experienced discrimination in this country, and even put into a concentration camp here in the US, I get very touchy about this kind of subject. I have seen the same mistreatment of Arab Americans, and I feel that in this day and age, our government has learned nothing. It makes me very angry that most Americans tolerate this kind of thing, because they are not affected by this kind of government action. Their silence is their approval - and that's the only way I translate their silence. So forgive me for jumping on you; it was unfair - and more than likely uncalled for. c.i.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 04:16 pm
Thank you, CI.
I didn't want to be on bad terms with you.

If it makes you feel any better, the torture is not OK with me, and I sincerely hope ALL who condoned it, or participated will meet with justice.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 04:24 pm
C.I. not to quibble, but shouldn't you have said "internment" camp? My father was "interned" in Australia and his treatment was more humane than a concentration camp. In any case a difficult time for Japanese-Americans
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 04:49 pm
panzade, That's what the US government would like to use the word "internment," but it was a concentration camp with barbed wire fence with watch towers manned by soldiers with guns. Several prisoners that got too close to the fence got shot dead.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 05:48 pm
I just want to emphasize that I jumped in the fray on Sofia's behalf and insisted she was not a nincompoop before she disrobed and got all voluptuous at us. Ahem.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 05:54 pm
Ah! Nudity denotes nimcompoopy-ness? Really, I expected more from such a free thinker.

Men!
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 05:57 pm
Err - no.

I just, you know, didnt want y'all to think I rushed to your defence just because, well, you know, like ... ahem. <blushes>
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 06:01 pm
Oh.

<regal pose>
<smiles>

I'm sure no one would've thought that...
<winks>
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 May, 2004 06:56 pm
If I looked like sofia I might be tempted to bare all too. Alas... kind of a good thing, my husband would throw out the computer and lock me to keep from ever getting to another one.

CI, I haven't heard too much about our previous bad era in America, it is as though it never happened or something. I am sorry that you had to go through that.
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