16
   

Is prison labor unethical?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 11:32 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I think, that mainly society as a whole is to blame. Legislators/politicians want to be re-elected. But if there's no general and loud "outcry", why should they act (even, if some wanted change). Judges just follow the law (in theory, at least).
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 12:07 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Any notion that this program is intended to replace long ended slavery as a source of very cheap labor is pretty wild.


That seems like a big leap to me too.

I went back to the original article --

Quote:
Founded in 1979, PIECP is designed to “place inmates in a realistic work environment, pay them the prevailing local wage for similar work, and enable them to acquire marketable skills to increase their potential for successful rehabilitation and meaningful employment upon release,” according to the National Correctional Industries Association. Forty-one states have participated in the program as of December 2013, according to the most recent quarterly report.


Before 1979 it seems that inmates made things for the government only so things feel a little slippery saying that business needed cheap labor so they invented laws to create a new form of slavery.

The timeline seems a bit wonky.

I know Wikipedia isn't the best source for information but their item on the history of American prisons says this:

Quote:
Prison building efforts in the United States came in three major waves. The first began during the Jacksonian Era and led to widespread use of imprisonment and rehabilitative labor as the primary penalty for most crimes in nearly all states by the time of the American Civil War. The second began after the Civil War and gained momentum during the Progressive Era, bringing a number of new mechanisms—such as parole, probation, and indeterminate sentencing—into the mainstream of American penal practice. Finally, since the early 1970s, the United States has engaged in a historically unprecedented expansion of its imprisonment systems at both the federal and state level. Since 1973, the number of incarcerated persons in the United States has increased five-fold, and in a given year 7 million persons are under the supervision or control of correctional services in the United States.[1]


It sounds like prisons became more humane after the Civil War so I'm not sure where that leaves the "new slavery" argument.

I do agree that privatizing the prison industry led to more prisoners. From what I'm reading, that started in 1984.

Interesting reading here: http://www.correctionsproject.com/corrections/pris_priv.htm
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 12:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Yeah. They all promise to get tough on crime but don't want to ask anyone to pay for it. That's what led to private prisons and they're pretty shifty.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 12:17 pm
@boomerang,
We can't have private prisons here due to the constitutionally monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force (literally translated "Violence-Monopoly of the State" > Max Weber).
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 12:27 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Then I read this:

Quote:
Forty-one states have participated in the program as of December 2013, according to the most recent quarterly report. The National Institute of Justice claims the program prepares inmates for life outside and lowers recidivism rates.

But critics say the program is exploitative [The word is: EXPLOITIVE; there is no such thing as to exploitate.] and takes jobs away from non-incarcerated workers to benefit prisons, which can withhold as much as 80% of prisoners’ pay for restitution and incarceration costs.


Now I'm not so sure it's a good idea.

What say you, oh A2Kers?
RESTITUTION to the victims is good.





David
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 03:15 pm
@boomerang,
National defense and corrections are the two functions of government that should be off the table for privatization.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 03:34 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
I wholeheartedly agree.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 05:10 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Any notion that this program is intended to replace long ended slavery as a source of very cheap labor is pretty wild.


don't know anything about the slavery aspect, but the use of prison labour in private prisons run by American firms has become a real political issue here in Ontario. the thought that private corporations are making money off the prisoners AND being paid by government to run the joints really bugs me. conditions are apparently particularly bad in the privately-run prisons.

I grew up in a prison (federal/privincial/county/military and city jails and correctional facilities) town so I'm generally not sympathetic to the prison population but the stuff I'm hearing about private prisons and kiddie jails is disturbing.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 05:28 pm
I spent most of my time in jail (3 month vigilante rap) laying on my bunk reading an assortment of books from the prison library.
I was supposed to be working in the boring workshops with the other cons but the screws must have forgot to assign me there, and I certainly wasn't going to tell them.
In fact I was reading "Geronimo: Apache Warrior" when a screw opened my cell door and said "What's up? Don't you want to leave us?"
I'd completely forgot it was my release day and hadn't reported to the office to be processed out!
Drat I never got to finish the book..
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 06:01 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Its OK. The Indians lose.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 06:17 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
I spent most of my time in jail
(3 month vigilante rap) laying on my bunk reading
an assortment of books from the prison library.
I was supposed to be working in the boring workshops
with the other cons but the screws must have forgot to assign me
there, and I certainly wasn't going to tell them.
In fact I was reading "Geronimo: Apache Warrior" when a screw
opened my cell door and said "What's up? Don't you want to leave us?"

I'd completely forgot it was my release day and hadn't reported
to the office to be processed out!
Drat I never got to finish the book..
U cud have REFUSED to leave
until u had completed it. The NERVE of that screw!

Did u complain to your union ?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 07:03 pm
@ehBeth,
Why should privatization of American prisoners be political issue in Ontario?

I don't why it bugs you. The whole purpose of spending money to build and run private prisons is to turn a profit. No one would do it if they didn't think they could make money.

If you just don't like the idea of private prisons, blame the officials who outsourced the responsibility. If the officials didn't take the money private prisons earn from prison labor into consideration when they negotiated the deal, blame the officials. How many companies are going to say "Wait, you're paying us too much!"

As long as a big chunk of the money paid to prisoner goes towards paying ordered restitution, and conditions in private prison meet laws and regulations, why should anyone care whether they make a profit?
boomerang
 
  3  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 08:34 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
As long as a big chunk of the money paid to prisoner goes towards paying ordered restitution, and conditions in private prison meet laws and regulations, why should anyone care whether they make a profit?


Because any for profit business depends on traffic passing through their doors.

In the portrait business, if we didn't have a "face" in the studio we were losing money.

Empty theater seats = lost money

Empty hospital beds = lost money

Empty jail beds = lost money

This is where things like what bobsal was posting really matter. Not enough crime? Make up some new laws. Start a "war on drugs". Make mandatory sentence guidelines. Assign incompetent lawyers.

Remember the scandal a few years back where a judge was getting kickbacks for every kid he sent to a certain juvenile prison?

I remember.

I'm curious too about why Canada is watching this. Perhaps someone is proposing privatizing their prisons.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 08:46 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Another failure is in terms of gun control.
Shud it have been successful,
despite government 's having been deprived of jurisdiction thereof
in the Founding Instrument of this Republic?????





David
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 09:54 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I wasn't commenting on whether any of the efforts to change public opinion should or should not have failed, simply pointing to which ones did fail and which ones did not, to illustrate that no matter how much money or energy is expended, the process isn't going to move public opinion in a direction it doesn't want to or isn't prepared to go.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 10:14 pm
@boomerang,
Of course the possibility exists that the companies that own and operate private prisons could attempt unethical or illegal ways to insure a constant flow of "product," but to oppose them on this basis alone assumes a belief in a degree of probability that these ways will be attempted that is just not supportable.

First of all, as every critic of the American Penal System has argued, there is no shortage of prisoners in this country. They cite statistics that say we have the highest ratio of prisoner to citizen in the entire world. They argue that too many people are being incarcerated because of laws that mandate prison sentences for non-violent drug crimes. They criticize the overcrowding in prisons.

Even if we assume that private prisons are willing to engage in the type of unethical, immoral and illegal actions you suggest to ensure that more people are sent to jail (a huge and unfair assumption) they have no need to do so.

All the beds, seats and cells are filled, and to overflowing.

This is the very sort of paranoid conspiracy theories on display in bobsal's video which by the way were all directed at the government, not private prisons.

Any business can operate unethically or illegally, but this is not a sufficient reason to prohibit anyone from engaging in business.

I don't remember the story of the judge you've related, but one story does not a trend make, and the fact that you are aware of it means processes put in place to find and stop such crimes work.

0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  3  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2014 10:09 am
All ideological dithering aside, Corrections Corporation of America and other similar companies are publicly traded, listed on US stock exchanges and answer to their for-profit shareholders, not for the public good. They spends huge amounts of money lobbying the US government to not only put more people in prison but to keep more people in prison longer. Corrections Corporation of America and other similar companies aggressively lobby against repealing out-of-date drug laws, against inmates rejoining society, against rehabilitation, etc.

See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvn1YhglgB0
Chumly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2014 10:12 am
Prison Privatization: Canada Mulls Contracting Services To Companies Lobbying For Correctional Work. The Huffington Post Canada | By Daniel Tencer Posted: 07/13/2012 9:08 am Updated: 07/13/2012 2:47 pm http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/07/13/prison-privatization-canada_n_1670755.html
Quote:
Canada's only privately run jail, in Penetanguishene, Ont., will return to public control on Saturday after a performance evaluation found a public jail of equivalent size had better security, prisoner health care, and reduced repeat offender rates.

The Central North Correctional Centre, one of two identical maximum-security super-jails in Ontario built by the former Conservative government, houses more than 1,000 prisoners and has been under the watchful eye of a private firm for the last five years.

The other jail in Lindsay, near Peterborough, was kept under provincial control.

"We found that in basically every single area, the outcomes were better in the publicly run facilities," Ontario Community Safety Minister Monte Kwinter told the CBC.

The government initially turned the Penetanguishene jail over to a private firm with experience running similar facilities in the United States. But six months ago, as the contract was set to expire, the government compared the two institutions and found the private jail fell short.

The report comparing the two prisons found the private jail also used fewer staff and ran fewer programs to help inmates.

It will cost $4 million to transfer the jail back to public ownership, butthegovernmentinsisted the decision to make the change wasn't ideological.

"I have no real problem with the concept of it being run by the private sector," Kwintersaid. "But in the end, the results just didn't justify it."

'Apples-to-apples' comparison

Longtime critics of the facility have said the government's review gives credence to opponents of private jails around the world.

"It's the first time in the world that there's been an apples-to-apples comparison of two identical facilities," said Sharon Dion of Citizens Against Private Prisons.

But even the review acknowledged it had some shortcomings. Because of construction delays at the private jail, the review only looked at a year's worth of data and couldn't show how it performed over a longer period of time.

Most of the employees, including corrections officer Ken Neal, will become public servants.

Neal said he hopes life will get back to normal when the transition is completed.

"Hopefully, people will be able to go home at night and not be so stressed out because of the uncertainty," he told CBC News.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2014 01:12 pm
Businesses that employ slave labor tend to decimate competition from businesses that are based on paid labor. This economic power imbalance tends to encourage graft among other negative consequences.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Jun, 2014 04:56 pm
@Chumly,
If you favor left-wing opinion, then The Young Turks is just the show to watch. The clip provided wasn't the hard hitting investigative journalism related to private prisons that you could expect from a show like Frontline. Three Young Lefties all sharing the same opinion isn't my idea of objective reporting.

As for the lobbying efforts of Correction Corporation of America, The Nation published the following article that is long on leaping assumptions and innuendo, but short on actual facts.

The Nation

Not surprisingly the authors of this article believe that opposition to "comprehensive immigration reform" which includes a provision for amnesty and support for the once-and-for-all securing of our Southern border, are positions which just had to be paid for since they are so obviously wrong and immoral that even evil Republicans wouldn't be for them unless a company like CCA paid them to be.

But here's the real proof that they save for the end

Quote:
(Texas Senator John) Cornyn’s amendment called for $3 billion to be spent on a mix of drones, border security guards, funding for 3,300 beds for immigrant detention over two years as well as 500 additional detention officers. In 2005, Cornyn’s immigration reform legislation called for 10,000 new ICE detention beds.


Forget that this is precisely what is needed if a serious effort to secure the border is necessary, Cornyn never would have thought of this if it weren't for CCA money.

I would expect CCA to lobby legislators in regards to any legislation that might be proposed at the State or Federal level to either prohibit private prisons or that involves regulation of the ones in place. Any industry would do this, and there is nothing sinister about it. Industry lobbying efforts on regulations rarely, if ever, kills all of the regulations. This may come as a surprise to those who are not particularly fond of corporations, but consider government regulators pure of heart and unsullied by political bias, but often proposed regulations contain excessive provisions that are based not on need but on ideology or the urge to flex government muscle. Lobbying in this regard focuses on educating legislators who are sympathetic to their interests on the facts about the regulations and what their impact will be on the industry being regulated. The purpose is to negotiate with the regulators, through these legislators, to have what they consider the most excessive or unworkable provisions eliminated.

I have been involved with industry lobbying efforts (not private prisons) and through the efforts of our lobbyists I was able to sit down across a table with legislators, both pro and con, and try and explain why a given regulation would be unnecessarily burdensome and/or why it wouldn't achieve the intended results. Sometimes these "negotiations" were successful and sometimes they were not but there was never a time when my company or my industry even thought that all it had to do was give money to our lobbyists so they could buy the results we wanted.

Money is transferred through lobbyists to the campaign funds of certain politicians and this is, within certain statutory limitations, perfectly legal. We did not ever say to our lobbyist that this money is to purchase the following legislature. Part of the money paid by a company or industry to a lobbyist is to obtain their assessment of which politicians are most likely to be in step with their interests. This could be on the simple basis that the politician was perceived to pro-business and anti-regulation, or that the given company or industry was a big employer of voters in the politicians state, city or town. A lobbyist tells you where you are likely to get the biggest bang for your buck, and some may be surprised that for businesses this is often Democrats. My company had certain financial interests that lined up with agriculture and we contributed to the campaign coffers of a number of Democrat Senators and congressmen from the Heartland. Were they corrupt?

Progressive causes spend lots of money lobbying, and Democrat and progressive politicians receive a lot of campaign contributions from individual corporations through lobbyists. The notion that the way the game is played by one side of the political spectrum is noble and squeaky clean, but sinister and corrupt as played by the other, is simply ridiculous.

Obviously there are shady lobbying and campaign funding but neither party is free of it.

If CCA stands to make more money if border security is strengthened than it makes perfect sense for them to spend money to help elect or keep in office politicians who champion a secure border, and who have enough of a base of voters who also want to see the border made secure. This isn't, as the shoddy Nation article suggests, purchasing a speech at the Republican National Convention or an amendment to increase funding of border security.

One of the more ridiculous offerings of "proof" that CCA is buying tougher prison sentences came from Chris Kirkham in the Huffington Post:

Quote:
Corrections Corporation's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission clearly point out that business success is tied to a status quo in criminal justice policy.

"The demand for our facilities and services could be adversely affected by the relaxation of enforcement efforts, leniency in conviction or parole standards and sentencing practices or through the decriminalization of certain activities that are currently proscribed by our criminal laws," the company's most recent annual filing noted. "For instance, any changes with respect to drugs and controlled substances or illegal immigration could affect the number of persons arrested, convicted, and sentenced, thereby potentially reducing demand for correctional facilities to house them."


Not only is this statement blatantly obvious, accurate and not sinister, it is required by the SEC to inform investors of what are, potentially, the most significant risks for the CCA's profit generation. They are called SEC filings because they are required by the SEC, and they are not admission of nefarious intent cleverly squeezed out of company by the SEC.

In any case, what's most wrong with our penal system is not that it has, to any degree been privatized, and even if you despise the notion of private prisons, that's not a reason to oppose the prison labor program that resulted in this thread.
 

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