15
   

Reality is relative, not absolute.

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2014 06:47 pm
@fresco,
You're not talking about the concept of reality; what you have described is an accident while riding a bike. People can have accidents while walking; those are accepted facts - especially with kids and seniors. Whether the individual who rides the bike and has an accident wishes to acknowledge it as an accident is for him/her to perceive. If there's injury involved, it's no use telling people that's not part of his/her reality.

Your use of the term "layman" in philosophy is silly.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2014 11:27 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil, I assume that the rapid improvement in your use of English in the last couple of years is in part due to the editing of your posts. As such I think I should honor that progress by re-reading my last posts. Then you shoot the hell out of my beneficent motivation by declaring the brightest among us "retarded".
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 01:04 am
@cicerone imposter,
The dichotomy "layman-philosopher" like any use of words (according to the pragmatists) is functional in highlighting the difference between "superficial common sense" and "considered analysis of underlying principles". You miss that point entirely by getting involved in a hypothetical discussion of whether cycling is healthy or dangerous. That scenario is merely an example of where the word "reality" tends to have a function. In short we do not utter the word "reality" when we engage in non-controversial discourse ...it has no function .... and that point is what distinguishes more recent philosophical views focused on language from traditional ones concerned with ontology and epistemology.


Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 02:46 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Right, C.I. but we would do well to keep in mind that all those "constructs" are not just common to ALL humans (in one cultural form or another) but they are common ONLY TO HUMANS. We all "drink water" etc. and share all our constructions in order to live (i.e., many of them have survival value). That is the reality of our reality--we need culture--but that does not, according to the game-rules of metaphysics, make them really real. Philosophers like Wittgenstein, Nietzsche and Rorty (and I am tempted to include the Buddha) tell us not what is real; they liberate us from illusion by assisting us to know what is unreal. But they do not tell us that what is not real is necessarily unnecessary.


No they do not!


At best, they offer another possible illusion about REALITY.

The idea that a possible illusion IS offering assistance in KNOWING what is unreal is as absurd as the notion that it IS offering assistance in KNOWING what IS real.

Why on earth does an intelligent individual like you buy into such nonsense, which really is nothing more than a variation on why "transubstantiation" makes sense?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 02:49 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Of course there are common concepts of "persistent things" due to common perceptual apparatus, language and goals. But notice that we do not USE the word "reality" when engaged with such things unless there is significant disagreement about states of affairs.

E.g. Some say cycling is healthy, but the REALITY is, cyclists often have accidents.

What the layman does when asked (by a philosopher) to consider the term "reality" is to assume it refers to what he believes are non-controversial states of affairs despite the fact that he never normally uses the term "reality" in connection with them. The laymen usually does not understand the significance of philosophical issues like "meaning is use"(Wittgenstein) or anthropological issues like different words for "water" according to whether it is culturally taboo to drink it or not. Nor is the laymen likely to appreciate how words can shape thought (Sapir-Whorf) or how it can transmit aspects of social structure through gender norms in lexical selection. All this is implied in Rorty's citation of the term "social construction of reality".

LATER EDIT
Apologies to JLN for repeating some points due to delay in composition.






And of course, in the world of someone who constantly engages the fallacy of and appeal to authority...if "philosophers" answer such a question...their guesses must be correct...and can be cited in forums such as this as gospel!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 02:53 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Fil, I assume that the rapid improvement in your use of English in the last couple of years is in part due to the editing of your posts. As such I think I should honor that progress by re-reading my last posts. Then you shoot the hell out of my beneficent motivation by declaring the brightest among us "retarded".


Do not allow that to become part of your religion, JL. It is based on a false premise...and one that begs the question only so you can brown-nose him.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 03:07 am
I see Frank has still got his putter upside down. No wonder the other clubs in the bag are a complete mystery to him !
(Remember the Beverly Hillbillies round the billiard table ? Very Happy )
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 06:25 am
It is quite funny how some people have the nerve to invert the underlying logic of problems. The reason the word reality is not used unless there is strong disagreement in opinion is precisely because what it refers to it is assumed to be a common frame of reference for all observers. When I walk I don't question my walking. Talking in merry go round circles not answering any of the inconvenient counters provided is not a debate is joking with other peoples faces ! (I am starting to get old for that ****, there are better places to go)
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 06:29 am
@fresco,
Frank can think 3x better then you ever will, that is your reality !
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 08:38 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
The reason the word reality is not used unless there is strong disagreement in opinion is precisely because what it refers to it is assumed to be a common frame of reference for all observers.

Well done...you got the right word there ! The word "reality" arises when that assumption fails.
Quote:
When I walk I don't question my walking.

Which is exactly Heidegger's point about "seamless coping" (aka "being" ) in which no things like "path" or "feet" or even "self" are evoked. It is only when the situation goes wrong that (say) a "self" verbally chastises itself for being engaged in reverie "elsewhere" and for tripping on "a bump" etc. In short. what we call things or "aspects of reality" are significant by their emergent role as dynamic junctures in "what happens next". Things have no static existential status independent of our goal directed focus i.e. our "being".


0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 09:44 am
@fresco,
I doubt very much there is any confusion about the 'reality' of riding a bike.

If you believe there is, you're the one missing the point about reality.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 10:18 am
@cicerone imposter,
No, you still don't get it.
I was not talking about the "reality of cycling". That could mean anything and is therefore a vacuous phrase. I was talking about the "cycling as healthy versus dangerous" the reality of which is negotiable and relative to context in which the discussion takes place.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 10:41 am
@fresco,
You,
Quote:
"cycling as healthy versus dangerous" the reality of which is negotiable and relative to context in which the discussion takes place.


Huh? The 'reality' of riding a bike based on healthy vs dangerous is not 'negotiable.' There is risk no matter how much discussion goes on; that's a FACT that's not negotiable.

There's also 'risk' when anyone drives their cars. That's not negotiable either!
fresco
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 11:26 am
@cicerone imposter,
Okay I'll try once more.
It does not matter if a "state of affairs" is actually negotiated...it has to be potentially negotiable...the solution to a dilemma... for the word "reality" to be used. What you call a "fact" (from facere to construct) could equally well be stated.... (following a negotiation even with oneself)...
"the reality is that cycling is both healthy but potentially a risk to health".
Thus the negotiation results in a construction/resolution/description of a state of affairs concerning cycling, in which the word "reality" has functionality in decision making. Without such a node of negotiation the word "reality" is never used in normal life (excluding philosophy).
Now either you understand this point about usage or you do not. It may be counter-intuitive to you yet an examination of your own discourse will substantiate it.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 11:30 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

I see Frank has still got his putter upside down. No wonder the other clubs in the bag are a complete mystery to him !
(Remember the Beverly Hillbillies round the billiard table ? Very Happy )


Nothing wrong with the way I have my clubs stacked.

You are unable to do what you set out to do in the OP. You cannot create a scenario in which REALITY is relative...not absolute.

But you do not have the ethical wherewithal to acknowledge that.

Hey, no problem. I certainly have suspected that problem with you for years...and I suspect most other posters here have also.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 11:33 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Okay I'll try once more.
It does not matter if a "state of affairs" is actually negotiated...it has to be potentially negotiable...the solution to a dilemma... for the word "reality" to be used. What you call a "fact" (from facere to construct) could equally well be stated.... (following a negotiation even with oneself)...
"the reality is that cycling is both healthy but potentially a risk to health".
Thus the negotiation results in a construction/resolution/description of a state of affairs concerning cycling, in which the word "reality" has functionality in decision making. Without such a node of negotiation the word "reality" is never used in normal life (excluding philosophy).
Now either you understand this point about usage or you do not. It may be counter-intuitive to you yet an examination of your own discourse will substantiate it.


If this is from the Book of Fresco...I want chapter and verse to check it out. And since the suspect book is in your head...you ought furnish a copy for us to inspect in its entirety.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 11:35 am
@fresco,
You're the one who brought up biking and reality of it's discourse about healthy and dangerous. Provide another example that provides an example of what your mean by reality. You're the one that's providing erroneous examples. Healthy and dangerous are contextual as with everything else in life.
Don't blame me for your lack of understanding concepts.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 11:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Heidegger "Being and Time" (Sein und Zeit).

This is a useful introduction for non-readers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P7bEoxpaM4
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 11:42 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Heidegger "Being and Time" (Sein und Zeit).

This is a useful introduction for non-readers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P7bEoxpaM4



Appeal to authority.

A constant with you.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 11:56 am
@Frank Apisa,
Even you should see that only a fool would ask for "chapter and verse" and then reject that answer as "an appeal to authority".





 

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