izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 05:14 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
We has the internet now Firefly, your lies are easy to spot.


Has we? Maybe you should check this site out.
http://www.edufind.com/English/Grammar/
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 05:18 am
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye, Elliot Rodger would not have needed to go to a hospital ER. He was never in that kind of acute state.

There are private free-standing psychiatric hospitals all over the country. You can arrange your own admission directly into the hospital--you don't have to go to an ER.

Here's a very well-known one
http://www.silverhillhospital.org/Home.aspx?gclid=CPX_rILA574CFeI7Ogod6zEA5w

And there are similar private psychiatric hospitals in California.
Quote:
We has the internet now Firefly, your lies are easy to spot.

I'm not lying. I don't lie. You really don't understand what you are talking about. You dig up a little info and you think you understand everything, when you clearly don't.

You seem not to know there is a whole world of private psych hospitals out there. The number of these hasn't declined that much. Where do you think the celebrities and the wealthy go? Some of these places are also the "rehabs". If you have money, you can find a private psych hospital bed somewhere. Rodger's parents took him to a celebrity psychiatrist--if he needed hospitalization, I think they would have opted for a relatively posh "celebrity" private hospital--it's totally different than a "psych unit".

But I don't think he really needed hospitalization, or would have benefited from being in one. I think he needed to be removed from college and have some sort of private out-patient care, probably including some medication. Then, whoever was treating him as an out-patient could decide if he needed hospitalization at any time in the future.
Quote:

just a couple of days ago you said that the parents "did all they could". I take it you are ready to come off of that nonsense now?

I still think they did all they could--given what they knew. They didn't know he wasn't even taking classes. They didn't know why he had gotten beaten up and how his ankle got broken. They didn't know he was acting-out by spilling drinks on people, squirting them with a water gun filled with orange juice, etc. And they definitely didn't know he was buying guns. But, by the time they had the police do the welfare check, they definitely should have brought him home because they were obviously worried about him--they were afraid he'd harm himself.

But I can't blame them for what they didn't do. Their child was vey difficult to understand and to deal with. He had rather complex problems. Maybe they didn't want to bring him home because they were afraid of making him feel like even more of a failure. The problems Elliot had really couldn't be solved, they could only be managed, and there was no easy or clearly successful way to do that. And he was already 22.

And I'm not even sure there are residential treatment programs for young adults with Asperger's, it was just a thought I had. And Elliot might have refused something like that. He wasn't easy to get along with. And he wasn't looking for help. His parents provided it, but he didn't ask for it, ever. He really needed them to manage his life for him.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 11:27 am
@firefly,
I used to have a troubled person working for me, and I know that she had great insurance, and was under care. One day she was suicidal. Mom took her to the ER, she could not wait days or weeks for an appointment. Because she had great insurance she was able to see someone else the next day to get stabilised. But that emergency system has to work. I find it appalling that I present evidence that the mental health emergency system in this country is broken, is causing great suffering, and then I watch you continue on your marry way arguing that we have a great mental health system.

Firefly, where is your compassion? Where is your fidelity to reality?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 12:43 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
And Elliot might have refused something like that
would have, and he was 23 so parents cant make him do anything at that point. Then the only remedy is involuntary commitment, but as I have shown beds for that are extremely difficult to come by.

One thing I wonder about is the report that the therapist saw the 140 pages before the parents and emailed the parents. The kid was 23, so contact with the parents is problematic by law. Maybe this is covered in the mandatory reporting law.

Another thing: the report was that the parents read the intro only and knew instantly what was about to happen.

Quote:
Introduction

Humanity… All of my suffering on this world has been at the hands of humanity, particularly women.
It has made me realize just how brutal and twisted humanity is as a species. All I ever wanted was to fit
in and live a happy life amongst humanity, but I was cast out and rejected, forced to endure an existence
of loneliness and insignificance, all because the females of the human species were incapable of seeing
the value in me.

This is the story of how I, Elliot Rodger, came to be. This is the story of my entire life. It is a dark story
of sadness, anger, and hatred. It is a story of a war against cruel injustice. In this magnificent story, I will
disclose every single detail about my life, every single significant experience that I have pulled from my
superior memory, as well as how those experiences have shaped my views of the world. This tragedy did
not have to happen. I didn’t want things to turn out this way, but humanity forced my hand, and this
story will explain why. My life didn’t start out dark and twisted. I started out as a happy and blissful
child, living my life to the fullest in a world I thought was good and pure…


THey (dad and step mom?) were in the highway at the time, and instantly decided that son was going to do something very bad and they needed to find him.

REALLY?

I am having second thoughts about my conclusion that the parents did not know how much trouble this kid was in because they did not want to know. I increasingly think that they knew exactly how much trouble he was in, and did relatively nothing. I said that they ignored him and thus did not know, but maybe they did know how much he was suffering, and ignored that. Which would be worse.

The long phone fights with dad also would indicate to me that the parents knew.

I think if I am the parent of a victim that I am not going to be quick to bond with Ellliots parents, as at least one has. I would want to know how much a part the parents played in my kids death first.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 04:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
Have you ever been in an ER? Do you know what the wait is like, just to get seen, even if you have a serious complaint like chest pain or head trauma? It can be hours. And, if you need admission, you can then spend days in the ER waiting for a bed to become available. And that's been the case as far back as I can remember. There is nothing unique about mental health care in that regard, that's the situation with all ER medical care, and all medical inpatient hospital beds. We have a shortage of hospital beds relative to demand, and that's been the case for a very long time, and it's not just confined to psychiatric beds.
Quote:
I used to have a troubled person working for me, and I know that she had great insurance, and was under care. One day she was suicidal. Mom took her to the ER, she could not wait days or weeks for an appointment. Because she had great insurance she was able to see someone else the next day to get stabilized

If that person was "under care" why did she have to go to an ER to get an appointment to see someone the next day? If someone is suicidal or a danger to others, they can be prevented from harming self or others, even in an ER, and they can be given medication, even in the ER. And basically, that's all that would be done when they are first admitted to the acute inpatient psych unit once a bed is available. Once someone is seen in the ER, needed immediate care is delivered in the ER. So, in your example, if that troubled person needed to be "stabilized" on medication, that medication could be delivered in the ER--and medication is the only way of rapidly "stabilizing" someone with psychiatric problems, all other treatment options are quite long term, and generally require ongoing outpatient care.

ERs are intended to deliver emergency care, and many people go to ERs for things that are not true emergencies, including psychiatric problems that are not true emergencies. That alone accounts for increased traffic in ERs. Urgent care outlets can help to take some of that burden off ERs. And we need to develop other heath care options so that people get better outpatient care, and have more options for outpatient care, so they don't have to show up in an ER for conditions that are non-emergencies. And the costs of ER care are exorbitant.

One benefit of Obamacare is that it provides for better treatment coverage of mental illnesses, so that should enable many more people to get that outpatient treatment. Inpatient psych care should be mainly a last resort-- when treatment cannot be reasonably delivered on an outpatient basis, or when a brief period of inpatient observation is absolutely necessary to determine dangerousness.

Our entire health care delivery system needs improvement, and not just in the area of mental health care. But that's a whole different topic that doesn't belong in this thread.

The fact remains, the Rodger family had access to mental health care, of their choice, and at times they sought it and used it. I'm sure the college also offered mental health services for students. So a lack of mental health services is not the place to put blame in this particular instance. That was also true in the case of James Holmes, the Aurora Theater shooter, who had also been in treatment prior to his shooting rampage.

Treatment doesn't always work, not everyone seeks treatment, and psychiatry is not terribly good at predicting dangerousness, and those facts alone will account for the reality that we won't always be able stop,or foresee, all acts of harm to self or others on either the part of the mentally ill, or on the part of those not considered mentally ill.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 04:19 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
the mass murderer is reduced to violent fantasy and pseudo-power. He creates and enacts an odious screenplay of grandiose and public retribution. Like the child who upends the checkerboard when he does not like the way the game is going, he seeks to destroy others for apparent failures to recognize and meet his needs. Fury, deep despair, and callous selfishness eventually crystallize into fantasies of violent revenge on a scale that will draw attention.


And are drugs or / and alcohol perhaps a part of this "fantasy" together with the collective of information that he retained in his eyes, pertaining to his beliefs do you think from the Forums he visited and interacted with and advised of what his next move was to.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/06/ucsb-shooter-elliot-rodger-xanax-made-him-withdrawn-lonely-isolated-anxious/

Quote:
Based on interviews with Elliot’s parents, Peter and Li Chen, the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department “is being told that he was likely addicted to Xanax . . . Peter and Li have been doing basic research on addiction to Xanax, and based on what they have read, they believe the tranquilizer made him more withdrawn, lonely, isolated, and anxious,”“It’s their understanding that when Xanax is taken in large amounts, or more than the prescribed dosage, these are some of the side effects. Xanax isn’t being blamed for causing Elliot to go on his rampage, but it probably wasn’t the best decision to have someone like him on it.”

Elliot’s parents have previously told law enforcement that their son had been taking Xanax in the days before the horrific murders, and feared he could have been abusing the anti-anxiety medication.


The Xanax had been prescribed to Elliot by a family doctor, according to law enforcement sources.

“Elliot had been taking Xanax for awhile, according to his parents … there were fears he might have been addicted to it, or taking more than was prescribed,




http://www.drugs.com/xanax.html

Quote:
To make sure you can safely take Xanax, tell your doctor if you have any of these other conditions:


•a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or behavior; or


•a history of drug or alcohol addiction.

Do not drink alcohol while taking Xanax. This medication can increase the effects of alcohol. Xanax may impair your thinking or reactions.

Xanax side effects

•depressed mood, thoughts of suicide or hurting yourself, unusual risk-taking behavior, decreased inhibitions, no fear of danger;


•confusion, hyperactivity, agitation, hostility, hallucinations;



Elliot's parents gave a statement that they are "not" grieving for their son, rather the victims.

In my opinion, that speaks volumes. They are "Free".

Elliots parents however, are now seeking answers and feel that Elliot may have been taking too much of the drug Xanax which was prescribed by their Doctor, however, a couple of weeks before hand when they told the Police, or Elliot's Mother, told the Police of their concern, they mentioned the drug. A previous room mate, claimed Elliot also drank alcohol and on the night he hurt his ankle being thrown over the wall, he was drunk. He has pictures of himself drinking... Mixing alcohol with this drug, "could" create a lot of additional "problems" as listed above as heightened.

Elliot didn't like the other drug he was previously prescribed as he read the symptoms. But, Elliot approved this drug.

It's a bit late for the parents to state perhaps they agreed to him having the wrong drug. Elliot was mentally ill, giving him a drug that could heighten depression, suicide, anger and hold no fear could have played a part in all of this.


Quote:
33 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs, six of which were stabbings, resulting in 164 wounded and 77 killed.


On page 133 of the manifesto, Elliot explains that he’ll shoot himself in the head and “I will quickly swallow all of the Xanax and Vicodin pills I have left….” He explains that if the bullets don’t kill him, the mixture of pills will.


Quote:
And it is quite possible that Rodgers was withdrawing from a psychiatric drug, which would also explain his violent behavior. Many people who have taken psychiatric drugs have found out the withdrawal effects of the drugs can persist for months, even years, after the drugs are stopped. Patients are frequently not warned about this, and are often told that it is simply symptoms of their “mental disorder” returning—yet studies have confirmed that after patients stop taking certain psychiatric drugs, the withdrawal effects may last several months to years afterwards
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 04:24 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
WTF is a family doc doing prescribing a mood altering drug to someone who is under the care of a psychologist? This is more evidence that he was moved from doc to doc till he got what he wanted, just like the parents did with schools.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 04:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
I know.

I was reading the last few pages here over coffee and decided to google his pictures. I too felt that the parents "gave up" and in fairness probably didn't know any more how to handle things.

In one photo I saw the drug, so I obviously then came across all of that information.

In all instances his real Mother appeared to have tried to save him and those he killed. She tried in my opinion to lift his spirits, mood, play dates, car, anything she could and she seems to have some form of reality to a degree, as it appears she also told the Police he was on those drugs and her fear of exactly what the drug can do, through the with-drawl process but still she was un-heard.

The mere fact that his Father is stating he is "only" grieving for the families and meeting up with the Parent of one of the deceased to try to alter things like this in the future, in my opinion, means based also on all that Elliot wrote, the Step Mother was in control it was left to her, the Father just went along with everything, he was too busy. (Edit) I also think his Father feels guilty and is hiding behind that guilt.

Double Edit - If your kid is mentally ill do you leave him in College to fend for himself whilst on drugs? He was old enough to add alcohol in the mix and it's clear that he added it. Wouldn't you panic just a little. This isn't a normal kid in College.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 04:49 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
We saw this with the sandy hook kid, he got what ever he demanded.

That did not work out well for us.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 05:23 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
he was 23 so parents cant make him do anything at that point. Then the only remedy is involuntary commitment, but as I have shown beds for that are extremely difficult to come by.

Someone who is evaluated in an ER, and deemed by a psychiatrist to be in need of involuntary admission, due to dangerousness, is not going to be allowed to walk out of that ER, no matter how long they have to wait for an inpatient psych bed. So bed shortage is not a factor in protecting public safety in that regard.

And you just can't resort to "involuntary commitment" just because a person declines treatment or medication. They must present evidence they are an immediate danger to self or others, for even a temporary psych hold for evaluation. Civil commitment is a form of incarceration, and the business of depriving anyone of their freedom and liberty must be taken very seriously, otherwise it is wide open to abuse of individuals basic civil rights/civil liberties. I'm amazed you, in particular, can't see that.

Suppose you decide you don't want treatment for your diabetes, or your blood pressure, or any other condition that could be life-threatening. Do you want to be involuntarily confined in an inpatient medical unit, and have medication forced on you, because some doctor decided that's in your best interest?

It's really no different in the case of the mentally ill. Unless they are already acting in a clearly dangerous way, like trying to assault staff members on a psych unit, they can't be medicated against their will either. And you can't "put away" anyone who hasn't yet committed a crime, for an indefinite period, on the supposition that some day they might harm someone. Under the right circumstances, we might all harm someone one day.

Until psychiatry can better predict dangerousness, we can't just "put away" people for indefinite periods. We do do that in the case of people who have been found not guilty by reason of insanity/diminished capacity--but those people have already committed crimes, we're just not holding them criminally responsible, so instead we lock them up in forensic psychiatric hospitals indefinitely, until they are deemed no longer dangerous--and they can wind up being incarcerated in such facilities much longer than any sentence they might have received had they been found guilty of their crime.

People have to face the fact that Elliot Rodger's dangerous behavior was largely hidden and carefully concealed from others--particularly his parents. The dangerousness was in his actually acquiring weapons and formulating plans on how he was going to use them. Thoughts by themselves aren't necessarily dangerous--but when they become combined with actions, it's the actions that are potentially dangerous--and no one appears to have known of his dangerous actions.

That's why there was no reason to take him to a psych ER, and there would have been no legitimate reason to involuntarily admit him to a psych unit. He may have been sounding strange, and acting peculiarly, but no one observed him doing anything that seemed particularly dangerous, and he could carry on a reasonable and coherent conversation, he wasn't really completely out of touch with reality, he knew what to say and what to not say to any psychiatrist who might interview him.

Elliot Rodger may have been emotionally and mentally disturbed, but he was able to conceal and plan a criminal act--an act he knew was wrong, and an act he could have stopped himself from carrying out. And, had he lived, he should have been held criminally responsible for his murderous actions. And he knew that too--that's why suicide was part of his plan, he didn't want to go to prison.

If anyone should have been aware of his criminal plans and capacity for dangerousness, it wouldn't have been his parents, it would have been his roommates--they had the most contact with him, could observe him the most, and they, as far as we know, did not observe anything that caused them to view him as extremely dangerous, or to alert any authorities about potential danger he posed--and he was planning on killing them. So if they didn't see his dangerousness, in a way that sufficiently alarmed them to take some kind of action, I don't think we can blame anyone else for not seeing it either.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 06:12 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Most medications for anxiety and depression are prescribed by family doctors. Patients aren't generally referred to psychiatrists for those drugs.

It's unlikely Xanax is to blame for any of his emotional problems--his depression and anxiety were of very long-standing duration--years and years.
He was in a state of chronic despair--including depression, frustration and anger-- about his inability to socially "fit in" from early adolescence onward.

Increased irritability might have been caused by withdrawal, if he was dependent on Xanax, and his drinking might also have caused increased irritability as well. But those really weren't the problems that would account for a well thought-out methodical plan to murder people, and a plan that required considerable preparation before execution. There was nothing impulsive about his murderous spree--it was a carefully planned criminal act. You can't blame Xanax--or alcohol--for that criminal act.
Quote:
Elliot's parents gave a statement that they are "not" grieving for their son, rather the victims.

In my opinion, that speaks volumes. They are "Free".

Oh, I don't think they meant they were glad to be "free"--not at all.

I think they were so overwhelmed by the loss of life their son had caused, and their heartache for all those grieving parents, and by their own feelings of guilt and shame, because their child had done something so horrible, they couldn't even emotionally focus on the loss of their own child. That's what I think they were saying. Adam Lanza's father had also said something similar. The horror of what your child has done temporarily obliterates grief over his loss--no matter how much you loved him. I think that's a normal and understandable reaction to such a major trauma--this tragedy was a profound psychological and emotional trauma for his parents in many ways. And they have to process and deal with that trauma--probably for the rest of their lives.

Quote:
do you think from the Forums he visited and interacted with and advised of what his next move was to..

I think the misogynistic forums he visited helped to convince him his anti-women feelings were reasonable and rational, since he found others who shared such views. I don't think they helped him to latch onto murder as a solution. Although he did say, in his manifesto, he wouldn't be "cowardly" in dealing with such hatred of women--he'd be stronger than those other men because he'd act on those feelings of hate. Whether he also said that in those forums isn't clear.

And on the bodybuilding site he frequented, when he began voicing some violent fantasies, other posters were disturbed by these, and many told him he sounded nuts. But he wasn't telling them he planned on killing specific people, or actually planned on killing anyone, so I'm not sure the other posters could have done much more other than tell him the kind of fantasies he had seemed crazy--if anything, they were pushing him to go get help.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 06:33 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Most medications for anxiety and depression are prescribed by family doctors. Patients aren't generally referred to psychiatrists for those drugs.

he was already under mental health care, the family doc should not have been involved AT.ALL. Your bringing "referral" is an attempt on your part to throw sand in our eyes, it has nothing to do with the argument that the family doc was negligent.

I was reading that 2 years ago Elliot when to a hollywood psychiatrist two times only, and then refused to go back. And never went to another one. More of him throwing a fit and getting what he wanted. More than likely it took Elliot two visits to figure out that this doc was not going to be easy to manipulate, so bye-bye it had to be.

Jeffery Dahmer's dad has a theory that parents never want to give up on their kids, they always keep the belief that they can save them so they dont turn the kids over to the state and docs if the kids dont want to go. There was probably some of that here. But mostly it was probably that Elliot was a master manipulator. That is what he meant in the 140 pages when he said that he was "meticulous" in his dealings with his parents. I think that the parents of these kids are so thrilled to get seemingly happy cooperative kids, even if it is just for a few hours or a few days, that they give their kids what ever they want, even if they know better.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 06:43 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
In 2012, Rodger verbally attacked a roommate for having a girl over. He yelled at the guy for having an “ugly whore” in his room.


Quote:
A FORMER roommate of mass murderer Elliot Rodger says he moved out of the apartment he shared with the disturbed youth because he had a “bad feeling”. Rugg said he and another male student left the apartment they shared with Rodger last June because they were “getting really uncomfortable living there.”Rugg said his roommate told him that he believed Rodger had a firearm because he could hear a gun “clicking.” He avoided conversation and was overheard having what Rugg presumed to be telephone conversations from his bedroom that got “angrier and louder”.

“There was a lot of just frustration for how he was not having a good time at school and how no one seemed to want to hang out with him, and it just got more and more serious,” Rugg said.


Rugg couldn't for-see what was going to happen, but like Elliot's Mother, there were "gut feelings" something was not right.. How would anyone residing with Elliot react, hearing a gun click over and over and over?

Quote:
The British grandmother of Elliot Rodger has described the 22-year-old as "a very disturbed boy."


PUAhate, is “a forum full of men who are starved of sex, just like me,” he wrote. Despondent and angry about female rejection, many of the members refer to themselves as “incels,” short for involuntary celibate, and openly fantasize about harming women, while also regularly lashing out at one another. But “ElliotRodger” seems to be the only one who posted under his own name.
He sent a link to the website to his parents, to help them understand how he was feeling. They didn’t respond — perhaps they were too shocked by the content to know quite what to say — though they appear to have gone to great lengths throughout his life to get him emotional support, working with an array of psychiatrists, therapists, life coaches, and “social-skills counselors,” or what he called “hired friends.”


Xanax may not be to blame and I'm not I believe suggesting it's why he committed a mass murder, however, I believe he took more than he should or perhaps stopped all together and drank more instead, which would make more sense and I believe that the with drawl was more than an irritability rather, an extra "trigger" igniting him into his Fantasy World.

I also note again, it appears that Elliot reached out to his parents regarding how he was feeling by linking them to the hate website, but they said absolutely nothing nor did they see that there was a serious problem on the horizon. I can't buy that "no one knew he was going to turn like this". Maybe they thought he would only commit suicide but if you love your kid, you do something more at this point. His Mother thought that 3-4 weeks before, so the videos, face book and his link surely gave her some concern enough to call the Police... Don't parents sometimes think "not my kid" and treat them for minor things therefore.

Mass Murders plan, I get that. But Elliot was mentally ill so whilst it's a criminal act, is it also one from a mentally ill patient so if he had lived, wouldn't he have been passed for being mentally ill as to why he committed the crimes and if a drug prescribed has side effects of " no fear, suicidal, delusional" has been taken by the said criminal isn't that also a possible reason for why he could understanding from a Court.

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.

• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

• A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

• A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

• Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

• Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...")

• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.)

• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage.

• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

• A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."

• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

• Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.


Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/039752_mass_shootings_psychiatric_drugs_antidepressants.html#ixzz340IYj4pM

firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 08:23 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
Mass Murders plan, I get that. But Elliot was mentally ill so whilst it's a criminal act, is it also one from a mentally ill patient so if he had lived, wouldn't he have been passed for being mentally ill as to why he committed the crimes and if a drug prescribed has side effects of " no fear, suicidal, delusional" has been taken by the said criminal isn't that also a possible reason for why he could understanding from a Court.


Being legally insane and being "mentally ill" are two quite different things.

To be legally insane/not guilty by reason of insanity, you have to be unable to understand the nature of your criminal act, unable to understand it is morally wrong, and unable to stop yourself from carrying it out.

Thanks to the manifesto he wrote out for us, we know he wasn't legally insane--he knew he'd be performing specific murderous acts, he knew they were morally wrong, but he felt justified in carrying them out anyway, and he could have stopped himself from carrying out these acts.

He wasn't for instance, under the influence of auditory hallucinations, he couldn't control, commanding him to kill, he wasn't so deluded that he failed to recognize he'd actually be killing real human beings, etc. And, he further, planned on killing himself, so he wouldn't go to prison for his acts. He knew exactly what he was doing, why he was doing it, and he knew such acts were morally wrong.

That would make him criminally responsible for those murders, mentally ill or not. Insanity defenses are rarely successful in this country.

In that list of drug-related crimes you posted, notice the absence of Xanax--most of the possible culprits are anti-depressants, and even with those meds, there is not a clear link to the crime. People are given anti-depressants because they already have mood problems. And there are cautions for using those drugs with adolescents, or for abruptly terminating their use.

What act of carefully planned cold-blooded murder is ever fully rational? Do you think O.J. was behaving rationally when he viciously stabbed his ex-wife and her friend to death? That was a planned act, that's why he had a knife with him. Do you think the terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Center were behaving rationally? They hated Americans, they wanted to harm us, and Elliot Rodger hated women, and the men who got them, and he wanted to harm them--Rodger wasn't that different than the terrorists in terms of his criminal actions, or his reasons for those criminal actions--they all felt justified to do what they did because they all felt aggrieved and vengeful.

I don't think Elliot Rodger would have gotten "consideration" from a court--he would have been charged with first degree murder for each death he caused. And he most likely would have been found guilty. His manifesto would have helped to convict him.

On the other hand, Jared Loughner, the person who shot Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, and killed several people in the process, was paranoid schizophrenic, clearly psychotic, and so severely disturbed it was a prolonged process to find him legally competent to even stand trial--meaning he had problems even understanding the nature of the charges against him, or understanding the function of the court, or cooperating with his attorney in his own defense.

Even in Loughner's case, the issue was his mental status at the moment he fired his gun, and he appeared to be aware of reality immediately after the shooting.. But, even with someone that seriously mentally ill--seemingly much more seriously disturbed than Elliot Rodger--they likely couldn't get him off with an insanity defense, because he planned and executed intentional murderous acts--which is why his attorneys advised him to enter a guilty plea to spare himself the death penalty, which is what he did.

And, unlike the Rodgers, his parents did not get their son mental health treatment--even when they were urged to do so. They might have been able to help prevent his shooting spree had they done so.

This is info about Loughner...

Quote:
CBS News/March 27, 2013
Newly released Jared Lee Loughner files reveal chilling details

After every mass shooting, the same question is asked: Did anyone see it coming?

On Wednesday, for the first time, CBS News learned what the family of Jared Loughner saw in the months before he attempted to assassinate Arizona Congresswoman Gabby Giffords.

Loughner is serving life for shooting Giffords and 18 others as she was meeting with constituents in Tucson. Six of them died.

Investigators released documents that give us the clearest look yet into the mind of a killer.

In the minutes after the shooting, while many of the victims were still being treated, Jared Lee Loughner calmly told police, "I just want you to know that I'm the only person that knew about this."

He refused to answer questions and asked "to plead the Fifth." In searching Loughner, officers found he was wearing earplugs and carrying two loaded ammunition magazines in his left front pocket.

The details come from more than 2,700 pages of newly released police files, which include pictures of Loughner's 9mm Glock, witness statements and transcripts of 911 calls.

"There are multiple shot," a caller says.

"Okay, oh my God," the dispatcher responds.

Interviews with Loughner's parents revealed they were deeply concerned about their son's increasingly angry and erratic behavior. His mother, Amy Loughner, said he no longer used alcohol and had tested negative for drugs.

"My concern was like, meth or something ... because his behavior and his, was, um, odd," she said in one of the interviews.

Randy Loughner said he was so concerned, he took away Jared's shotgun and often disabled Jared's car at night to prevent him from leaving the house.

Just hours before the shooting, Randy Loughner said he tried to confront his son.

"He came in and I wanted to talk to him. And he took off," he said. He was carrying a backpack.

Witness interviews document repeated horror stories and a chaotic shooting scene. Giffords' intern Daniel Hernandez told police he began treating the congresswoman.

"She was conscious," Hernandez said. "Her breathing started getting shallower." In an interview this afternoon, Hernandez remembered trying to keep her alive.

"I was trying to keep Gabby calm, talking to her, giving her instructions to squeeze my hand ... I was talking about her responding to commands and trying to listen to what I was saying."

And one of the most chilling pieces of evidence is a voicemail, first played by "60 Minutes" in January 2011. At 2 a.m., eight hours before the shooting, Loughner left this message for a friend he'd not spoken to in nearly a year:

"Hey. Hey, it's Jared. I just want to tell you good times. Peace out. Later."

The papers also reveal Loughner did not seek mental health treatment. When he was expelled from college, his parents were urged to have him evaluated, but they never followed up.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/newly-released-jared-lee-loughner-files-reveal-chilling-details/


And I think this article will be of particular interest to you, Foundy, because it's the same sort of discussion we're having about Elliot Rodger, particularly the talk about misogyny and what pushed him over the edge. And I know you are interested in the minds of killers.

Quote:
The Troubled Life of Jared Loughner

Suspect Jared Loughner seems to have broken with reality before the Tucson shootings. But did political rhetoric push him over the edge? Psychological research shows that's highly unlikely
By John Cloud
Jan. 15, 2011

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2042358,00.html


FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 09:46 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
That would make him criminally responsible for those murders, mentally ill or not. Insanity defenses are rarely successful in this country.

Fair enough.. You're right, I didn't consider the manifesto in all of that.

I did find a few Smile

Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.


5.Middletown, Maryland – April 17, 2009: Christopher Wood shot and killed his wife, three small children and himself inside their home. Toxicology test results verified that Wood had been taking the antidepressants Cymbalta and Paxil and the anti-anxiety drugs BuSpar and Xanax.

8.Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system.

Xanax is a benzodiazepine

2.Kauhajoki, Finland – September 23, 2008: 22-year-old culinary student Matti Saari shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

Quote:
Regarding problems of anxiety, Xanax is the DOC, or drug of choice, for it. In problems of depression, Prozac is widely prescribed for people having this type of illness.


Is it actually possible Elliot took both but we have not heard about it. If Xanax is widely known for anxiety, which he had and Prozac is widely known for " depression" which he also had, why wouldn't the Doctor have diagnosed this, what about when he spent 3hrs in his Family's arms because he was suicidal? Or, when he sent them the link regarding the Forum and hating women? That's not "anxiety" Anxiety was when he stood dead still in the hallway at school... There are also other medications you can take over the counter that create problems with Xanax and also alcohol.

Quote:
Xanax has proven itself to be habit-forming in a number of cases, and its addictive properties further complicate its relationship with alcohol. The website xanaxaddiction.com reports that among people who have taken Xanax continuously for a year, about one out of three either cannot stop taking the drug or experience long periods of severe withdrawal symptoms
.

So perhaps that is where his dark mood came to light? Before this he was merely suicidal and whiney and hated but that suicidal and whiney seemed to dwindle and the hatred over took everything.. You're right I am interested in the minds of killers. At the end he was quite delusional everyone he knew could not believe who this person was, it was not the Elliot they knew. Sure he broke, but in an evil way, his laughter much the same as Jared Lee Loughner though no one feared him because they had not seen him this way before, unlike Jared. (Thanks for the link).

Whilst everything you say makes perfect sense it doesn't hurt to dig a bit deeper right or wrong, it solves a puzzle at least in your own mind.


I guess some questions still remain for me.

Did the anxiety start from Bullying, or before that.. He had a happy childhood. Anxiety can still be had from something traumatic such as sexual abuse. (In those woods) I know, I know Smile

Did Xanax which is meant to make you feel mellow and alcohol combined send him into any mental state whilst awake/sleep, that took him to his fantasy world that became real in the end in his mind.

Was there another drug perhaps that hasn't been mentioned as now his Father it appears and Mother are looking into the side effects of Xanax. Though in reality it only makes you drowsy from what I read as a main problem or kill you if you drink with it and what about the dosage.. What effect can dosage have on someone, too much, too little and we already viewed the with drawl from the drug.

Strangely Jared Lee Loughner stopped smoking marijuana 2 weeks before attempting to join the Army, passed but decided to tell them he was an avid dope smoker and that squashed that. Was he on with drawl? So tried to be someone but panic set in? Can't smoke or do any other drugs if I go through with this? His outcome was a mass murder.

I just think it is worth while (for me at least) to delve more into each bit of information given...


Quote:
Elliot Rodger hated women, and the men who got them, and he wanted to harm them--Rodger wasn't that different than the terrorists in terms of his criminal actions, or his reasons for those criminal actions--they all felt justified to do what they did because they all felt aggrieved and vengeful.




So what did the Asians do. He hated women, men who got them, so do you think that the previous flat mate that bought a girl home, that he called a whore is the reason he killed the Asians or they were merely there, why not, or because he was so evil and wanted heads rolling down the road, they were the target of that fantasy of his plan...

Quote:
Even in Loughner's case, the issue was his mental status at the moment he fired his gun, and he appeared to be aware of reality immediately after the shooting.. But, even with someone that seriously mentally ill--seemingly much more seriously disturbed than Elliot Rodger--they likely couldn't get him off with an insanity defense, because he planned and executed intentional murderous acts


Maybe Elliot's parents should have not just had him on anxiety medicine, maybe, they should have taken him out of College bought him home, continued to school him, whatever, he sent them a link about hatred of women (Forum) but they still ignored that. Maybe Elliot would become like Loughner, if he lived longer and decided to plan this later in life.. Xanax couldn't have worked if it's to make you feel happier, not so anxious and he became depressed so badly the world sucked, he was God but something else was wrong with him. When he was down and out he talked suicide, that's depression. He exhibited some of Loughner's traits in the end, it was no longer suicide as you state that was what he "had" to do, wasn't going to jail. It was the same, calculated, the laughter chilling...

Anyways.. It's interesting for me and thanks again for the link on Loughner.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 10:10 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
Did the anxiety start from Bullying, or before that.. He had a happy childhood. Anxiety can still be had from something traumatic such as sexual abuse. (In those woods) I know, I know Smile


Says him. I have heard no one say that he was normal as a small boy so I take your theory with a grain of salt. Still, there is this

Quote:
That precise verbiage is also found in some 1999 divorce papers obtained by RadarOnline, in which Li Chin Rodger, Elliot’s mother, was seeking three thousand dollars a month in child support, in part because, she claimed, “Elliot has special needs; he is a high functioning autistic child.”
In that same filing, though, Peter Rodger responds by saying he doesn’t know anything about an autism diagnosis for his son:
Though Li Chin Rodger claims in her court documents that Elliot is a high functioning autistic child, I was not involved in any prior evaluation of Elliot. Li Chin did not inform me about any evaluation of Elliot. This disturbed me greatly. I am now in the process of having Elliot evaluated by a child psychiatrist. Li Chin Rodger has agreed to be a part of the process.


http://thedailybanter.com/2014/05/report-mass-murderer-elliot-rodger-never-diagnosed-autism/

WOW, talk about not being on the same page re Elliot. Maybe about using Elliot for financial gain. Another thing, in the 140 pages Elliot is sure that both of them, but especially mom, are wanting to give him money in return for him going away. Could the root of Elliots problem be not biology but rather environment? We see with Lanza and this recent Seattle killing that these young men with alleged mental problems also seem to have very messed up family lives, which is the fault of the adults.

I am not with you Found Soul that abuse is thee root problem, but I am with you that I am not at all willing to assume that genetically caused brain function problems are. Show me the gene sequencing if someone wants to convince me of that.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 10:52 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
maybe, they should have taken him out of College bought him home,

That really is what they should have done. He wasn't taking courses any more, he was completely psychologically and emotionally overwhelmed by the social environment at college, he was drinking too much--he was drowning because he was like someone who was thrown into the deep end of the pool when he doesn't know how to swim. He needed to be rescued and gotten out of there.
Who knows why they didn't do that? They aren't uncaring parents, so they likely had reasons for what they did or didn't do, which they may never share with us. I think that getting him out of college and bringing him home might have kept him from ever becoming homicidal. There still would have been the problem of trying to help him carve out some kind of future for himself as an adult, and one he could manage despite his disabling social difficulties, but I don't think he would have become so consumed by a murderous rage in the more protected environment of his home.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2014 11:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
It seems you are suggesting that 1) His Mother was materialistic perhaps. She was after $3000 a month for Elliot and so, diagnosed a problem.. (One of which it seems that he only got treated for anxiety and social skills).. 2) That his Mother may have been materialistic as she was dating a millionaire at some point. 3) That she taught Elliot to be the same? He knew she would give him money, sunglasses, a gold necklace, the BMW, materialistic items...

So his Father... and Step Mother. They lived in a "nice" home, Elliot was peeved that his Mother didn't marry the millionaire that she had to move to a small house and then an apartment.. He was OCDC about wealth which in itself can be a mental illness. He didn't want to bring people home to his Mother's house and bragged about his Father's house. But, couldn't take people there due to his Step Mother.

Materialism off course brings on depression which brings on suicidal thoughts so where does the "evil" side come into it... Simply because no one saw him as owning anything substantial even though in his mind he did, or that his Family weren't wealthy enough and the only way he could gain wealth to gain friends and women was money so the lottery tickets?

So the whole scenario is based on materialistic depression? Bi-polar people can't stop spending money. So you don't believe that he is / was a screw loose rather, his up-bringing drove him to become who he was.

Am I getting this right, please correct me otherwise...



OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 03:34 am
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:
It seems you are suggesting that 1) His Mother was materialistic perhaps. She was after $3000 a month for Elliot and so, diagnosed a problem.. (One of which it seems that he only got treated for anxiety and social skills).. 2) That his Mother may have been materialistic as she was dating a millionaire at some point.
In his chronicle, Elliot repeatedly complains of her repeated, admant refusals to marry again,
including refusal of marriage to the multi-millioinaire.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2014 03:45 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Yes, I get that I am asking if Hawkeye believes that he was bought up in a materialist world but as he didn't have the fame of money, the power of money, that he craved so much, non recognition, Mother didn't marry this guy etc that his materialism created a huge depression one perhaps he wasn't treated for coupled with "a" mental illness of what ever we label it as well as "perhaps" alcohol, Xanax, maybe another drug who knows as that part is only coming out now, caused his delusional fantasy and ultimately the deaths, making him another mass murder.

Elliot also used his Mother as he saw she would give him "anything".

Elliot also therefore "preferred to stay with his Mother" than at his Father's house.

We said "spoilt" I am asking if it's materialistic depression.
 

 
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