For Arguments Sake: Nothing Exists Beyond The Physical Realm

To me "the spiritual" refers to mood, to that attitude (whether amorous, artistic, intellectual, military, etc.) that animates a person. The quality can vary in terms of intensity and kind. I think of the material or physical world as that which is to some degree and in some way palpable (i.e., directly or indirectly by means of sensory substitutes or extensions: telescopes, microscopes, etc.). BUT I do not know precisely what is the nature of such palpable "things." And I suspect the physical has very blurry or indescribable boundaries (as in particle physics), if boundaries there be. Ergo, I cannot say there is or is not some realm beyond the physical, for to say so I would imply I know what is the boundary of the physical world. To complicate this further, I suspect that the "physical" universe is boundless, and the spiritual is a part of it, not beyond it.

0 Replies

Re: For Arguments Sake: Nothing Exists Beyond The Physical R

IronLionZion wrote:

Information has not be lost, it has been transformed.

I'll give you credit for creative squirming, but I don't buy it. The information has been lost, no doubt about it.

IronLionZion wrote:

In any case, I'm not sure what you've said here contradicts my case.

Well, you did start by saying that everything is a physical reality, but it's clear that information is not equal to mass/energy, so this seems to contradict the conjecture.

Right?

0 Replies

Derevon, You need to try and use a police-firefighter type scanner. And then reflect on why electro-cardioligists and EEG technicians call them (poetically) heart or brain scans.

I am going to try once more but at this point in the discussion we perhaps should move to the "Science&Technology for a discussion on the limitations of instrumentation and the theories and methodologies used.

Idea

Search "Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence" sometime when you get a chance. Consider the number of frequencies that they are "scanning" Shocked

It would seem to me that anytime when a person was receiving memorable information the EEG wouldn't be flat. Since there is some reason to believe that the imagination does not work in real time I don't think that there is any way of knowing just when the tunnel light or other NDEs appeared since we cannot yet read the "dreams" of another person until they describe them to us. For now anyways, "stray voltage" is a poetically succint plausable natural explanation. IMO natch, Smile

0 Replies

Regarding "near death" experiences: all of them are "near death", not "return from death", in the sense that none involved a patient who had experienced brain death. To my knowledge, no one has ever "returned" from that state.

Which means that, while the near death experience may well be what the experiencer perceives it to be, it could also have other explanations, such as an origin and development completely within the still living brain of the subject.

Oddly enough, these experiences are frequently cited by Christians as "proof" of the veracity of their religion, in spite of the fact that an immediate entrance into heaven upon "death" flatly contradicts the Biblical version of the afterlife. I believe the trumpet has not yet sounded, and we are not supposed to rise from our graves until it does.

I am not prepared to say that nothing exists beyond the physical realm, although it seems implausable that, as physical beings, we will ever have access to dimensions we were not built to survive in.

0 Replies

Greyfan writes

Quote:

I am not prepared to say that nothing exists beyond the physical realm, although it seems implausable that, as physical beings, we will ever have access to dimensions we were not built to survive in

I am one who fervently believes that humankind has a tiny fraction of the science it will eventually have. I think eventually there will be technology to detect and measure a spirit dimension unconfined by the physical realm and unrestrained by any science known to humankind at this time.

If I am right, then the argument would be made: can you really separate say a physical body from the soul and say one is in the physical realm and one is outside it? If we can, then ILZ's hypothesis is incorrect. If we cannot, ILZ is vindicated. Smile

0 Replies

Foxfyre,

One Kreugerrand on ILZ, payable W/O interest sometime during 3004 AD. I'll be somewhere around Canis Major. Just holler and we can settle up then. Laughing

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

I am one who fervently believes that humankind has a tiny fraction of the science it will eventually have. I think eventually there will be technology to detect and measure a spirit dimension unconfined by the physical realm and unrestrained by any science known to humankind at this time.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe that this spiritual realm exists only for humankind, and not to our closest relatives? I f the answer is yes, what causes you to arrive at that conclusion? If the answer is no, how far down the scale of life does the spiritual realm go?

0 Replies

I honestly don't know Mesquite. I honestly haven't thought about that. I just think the preponderance of evidence supports a spiritual dimension; thus I think eventually we'll have the science to prove it.

(I have posted elsewhere that I really hope there are creatures of the furry variety, etc. in the next life too. I would miss them I think.)

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

(I have posted elsewhere that I really hope there are creatures of the furry variety, etc. in the next life too. I would miss them I think.)

Yes, I miss some already. Personality for certain is not limited to humankind.

0 Replies

Mesquite writes:

Quote:

Yes, I miss some already. Personality for certain is not limited to humankind.

A little less than a year ago, we had to put down our furry canine companion of 14 years. We had the vet come to the house and held him in our arms. It was the compassionate thing, but it was so very hard to do. And we miss him terribly.

Since that time, when the house is quiet, both my husband and I have heard the clicking of his claws on the kitchen floor, have heard the snap of the doggie door (that is now locked shut), and off in the distance will hear the brief squeak of a chew toy. Our imagination translating natural sounds into wishful thinking? Almost certainly. But it is oddly comforting.

0 Replies

I can fully relate to that, Foxfyre.

0 Replies

akaMechsmith wrote:

Derevon, You need to try and use a police-firefighter type scanner. And then reflect on why electro-cardioligists and EEG technicians call them (poetically) heart or brain scans.

I am going to try once more but at this point in the discussion we perhaps should move to the "Science&Technology for a discussion on the limitations of instrumentation and the theories and methodologies used.

Search "Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence" sometime when you get a chance. Consider the number of frequencies that they are "scanning"

There's a slight difference between normal EEG-frequencies (below 20Hz) and the radio frequencies SETI scans for (thousands of MHz).

Quote:

It would seem to me that anytime when a person was receiving memorable information the EEG wouldn't be flat. Since there is some reason to believe that the imagination does not work in real time I don't think that there is any way of knowing just when the tunnel light or other NDEs appeared since we cannot yet read the "dreams" of another person until they describe them to us. For now anyways, "stray voltage" is a poetically succint plausable natural explanation. IMO natch,

Imagination? People have given detailed, accurate accounts of what they have seen while their EEG:s showed no sign of electrical activity in the brain, and they have been correct.

0 Replies

JLNobody wrote:

To me "the spiritual" refers to mood, to that attitude (whether amorous, artistic, intellectual, military, etc.) that animates a person. The quality can vary in terms of intensity and kind. I think of the material or physical world as that which is to some degree and in some way palpable (i.e., directly or indirectly by means of sensory substitutes or extensions: telescopes, microscopes, etc.). BUT I do not know precisely what is the nature of such palpable "things." And I suspect the physical has very blurry or indescribable boundaries (as in particle physics), if boundaries there be. Ergo, I cannot say there is or is not some realm beyond the physical, for to say so I would imply I know what is the boundary of the physical world. To complicate this further, I suspect that the "physical" universe is boundless, and the spiritual is a part of it, not beyond it.

Foxfyre wrote:

Greyfan writes

Quote:
I am not prepared to say that nothing exists beyond the physical realm, although it seems implausable that, as physical beings, we will ever have access to dimensions we were not built to survive in

I am one who fervently believes that humankind has a tiny fraction of the science it will eventually have. I think eventually there will be technology to detect and measure a spirit dimension unconfined by the physical realm and unrestrained by any science known to humankind at this time.

If I am right, then the argument would be made: can you really separate say a physical body from the soul and say one is in the physical realm and one is outside it? If we can, then ILZ's hypothesis is incorrect. If we cannot, ILZ is vindicated.

the 'spiritual' is indeed a ephemeral 'entity' as far as definition goes; while i dismiss the 'dieological' versions, i feel (and i do mean 'feel', not 'think') there is a certain 'connection' between all living things, which i see as being a kind of 'radio' signal best described graphically by 'Kirlian' images.

And if science ever succeeds in isolating this 'something' it will seem afterward as so thoroughly obvious!

0 Replies

BoGoWo writes:

Quote:

And if science ever succeeds in isolating this 'something' it will seem afterward as so thoroughly obvious!

Oh I agree. There is actually already some scientific evidence of the phenomenon given the number of law enforcement agencies who consult psychics to help with clues to locate missing persons, etc. And while these experiments are not universally successful, the percentage of accuracy would suggest that something more than probability is at work.

For instance, my mother's brother was a master sergeant serving in Korea during that conflict. At one point, with several witnesses present, she stated that something had happened to (her brother). She circled the date on the calendar. Some days later she received notification that he in fact had encountered an enemy patrol and had been very seriously injured. And it had happened on the date she circled.

Things like that just can't be explained by 'provable' laws of science.

0 Replies

Hi Fox,

I understand that you accept the things below as facts, and that's fine if it satisfies you. However, many of us require solid scientific evidence, and are much harder to convince.

Foxfyre wrote:

Oh I agree. There is actually already some scientific evidence of the phenomenon given the number of law enforcement agencies who consult psychics to help with clues to locate missing persons, etc. And while these experiments are not universally successful, the percentage of accuracy would suggest that something more than probability is at work.

This in incorrect. In all cases where incidents of this nature have been subjected to rigorous scientific examination, they have failed to demonstrate any validity at all. Despite this, police departments continue to use "psychics", in many cases distracting themselves from productive investigation alternatives, and perpetuating the myth (and incomes) of psychics. It's very unfortunate that people are so easily fooled by such stuff.

Foxfyre wrote:

For instance, my mother's brother was a master sergeant serving in Korea during that conflict. At one point, with several witnesses present, she stated that something had happened to (her brother). She circled the date on the calendar. Some days later she received notification that he in fact had encountered an enemy patrol and had been very seriously injured. And it had happened on the date she circled.

Speaking from a skeptic's point of view, I would point out that "something" happens on "every" day to "someone" (even a brother). Just because you find out later that "something" did happen on that day, doesn't make the prediction very impressive. A prediction with this level of ambiguity is meaningless from a scientific point of view. And yet these are exactly the types of incidents which police and others use to make a case for the use of psychics in investigations.

Foxfyre wrote:

Things like that just can't be explained by 'provable' laws of science.

Actually it's easily explained; the "prediction" was so wide ranging that it couldn't help but stumble across a false positive.

If you or anyone else wants to believe this stuff, that's fine. I'm just pointing out that the methodology you are using is insufficient to be considered scientifically valid.

0 Replies

rosborne979,

Did you check out this link I pasted in a previous post?

http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html

It's an "assessment of the evidence of psychic functioning". Here's a part of the abstract:

"Research on psychic functioning, conducted over a two decade period, is examined to determine whether or not the phenomenon has been scientifically established. A secondary question is whether or not it is useful for government purposes. The primary work examined in this report was government sponsored research conducted at Stanford Research Institute, later known as SRI International, and at Science Applications International Corporation, known as SAIC.

Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established. The statistical results of the studies examined are far beyond what is expected by chance. Arguments that these results could be due to methodological flaws in the experiments are soundly refuted. Effects of similar magnitude to those found in government-sponsored research at SRI and SAIC have been replicated at a number of laboratories across the world. Such consistency cannot be readily explained by claims of flaws or fraud."

0 Replies

Thank you Derevon. I knew I had seen something about that somewhere but for the life of me couldn't remember where.

0 Replies

Derevon wrote:

rosborne979,

Did you check out this link I pasted in a previous post?

Hi Derevon,

Yes, I checked it out. I'm still not convinced. The results reported haven't been through sufficient peer review and I don't trust the convictions of a few "scientists", nor the opinions of the sources cited. I will need to see overwhelming evidence of a more substantial form before I will be convinced of any claim as extravogant at this one. You will need to cite multiple corroborating sources and tests before the argument will even begin to be convincing. And since the scientific community isn't already talking about this, which it definitely would be, if the results were measurable and respected, I'm guessing that I'm not the only skeptic with reasonable doubts along these lines.

My requirements here may seem like a tough test to pass, but every other accepted scientific theory has passed these tests, so we cannot change the rules for this theory.

0 Replies

Well there is a sentiment found in the Bible "Blessed is he who has seen and believed, but even more blessed is he who believes even though he has not seen." (Paraphrased.)

The Bible also comments on those who have seen and still don't believe and on those who hold out hope for things yet unseen. (Also paraphrased.)

In my experience all are true and I have no reason to believe they will not continue to be true. I will continue to respect those scientists who know there is something more than what we have (so far) experienced with the five physical senses and who have devoted their lives to keep pushing the envelope beyond what we now know.

The scientists who run this facility have had zero success in more than 20 years but they have no intention of ceasing their efforts as they believe probability is on their side:

http://www.vla.nrao.edu/
http://www.vla.nrao.edu/genpub/tours/
(This is about 1-1/2 hours from my house.)

Those of us who have experienced the spiritual dimension know it is real. But this is science that must be experienced to be understood. We cannot prove it any more than we can prove the existence of God. Conversely, of course, nonbelievers cannot prove it doesn't exist any more than they can prove that God does not exist.

It's like trying to describe an orgasm to somebody who has never had one. Yet we all know what we have experienced when it happens.

0 Replies

rosborne979,

This has nothing to do with opinions. The assessment includes several different tests which have been carried out using scientific methodology, on several different places on the earth. If chance alone was the only factor, the likelihood of the results which the assessment showed would be approximately 1 on 10^20 (0.000000000000000001%), i.e. virtually nonexistent.

The reason for why not much is heard about these kinds of test in media is probably that statistical surveys don't have much news value. People want exceptional stories where extraordinary talents are applied in real life situations with great success, and not some dull results from a statistical assessment.

It's hardly strange that it isn't discussed much in the scientific community, as "psychic functioning" (as of today) is outside the domains of science. They simply cannot explain the phenomena, so they choose to ignore them. Or perhaps they are afraid of losing reputation, or maybe they have already made up their minds about everything paranormal being nonsense in advance.

0 Replies

For Arguments Sake: Nothing Exists Beyond The Physical Realm

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know