For Arguments Sake: Nothing Exists Beyond The Physical Realm

No credible arguments? How about all the thousands of testimonies of out of body-experiences and near-death experiences which cannot be explained scientifically? How about remote viewing being empirically/statistically proven beyond reasonable doubt? (http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html)

Oh, Derevon, They have never been proved to have occurred in any way but naturally.

I am going to tell another story. The light seen by many dying persons.


If you dive deeply enough in water that is not crystal clear (think of the "amnionic sac breaking" at birth) . The sky will appear as a point of light increasing in size as you ascend. The delivery room will appear as a point of light increasing in size as you emerge (are born).

This memory is locked in every humans subconcious mind. It causes me no amazement that this is often the memory remaining as the concious self loses control (dies).

You may try "The American Rationalist" magazine. They have a web site and you may be able to finagle a couple of free copies. Naturally they'd like to sell you a subscription

They are in the business of attempting to deduce what may exist only in a mind as compared to ideas that have some basis in facts. They are fairly adept at exposing fallacious logic.

Politicians, Physicists, Poltergists and Prime Movers have often been satisfactorily explained without resort to violating any observations.

Good luck,

Re: For Arguments Sake: Nothing Exists Beyond The Physical R


Information exists but isn't physical. Can you be more specific with your conjecture?

If you take a dandelion and burn it to ashes (all in a perfect container), the mass of the ash and gases is the same as the original, and yet you no longer have a dandelion. Information has been lost, but mass has not.

"belief" is a wonderfull thing; it can be applied to absolutely 'anything', and there are NO rules!

akaMechsmith,

The tunnel part is about the only part of near-death experiences that could be explained scientifically in any remotely plausible way. I was more referring to meeting with dead relative and friends (no one ever meets anyone who is still alive, which would undoubtedly have been the case if it was generated by the brain). People born blind have been known to see during these experiences. People have seen their entire lives in review in basically no time at all, full panorama view, knowing the consequences of every action they've made, knowing every feeling of every person involved, etc.

I always go back to the fact that the mind can conceive of possibilities. The mind can think thoughts of things that, so far as we know, were never thought of before. Of such come wonderful inventions and incredible scientific discoveries.

If the mind can conceive of the physical of which nobody previously knew, how unreasonable is it to discount that the paranormal/spiritual concepts in our minds are any less real?

For Argument's Sake: Nothing Exists Beyond ...
>>>>In short, no credible argument exists for anything existing beyond the physical realm. I know wishful thinking has been fashionable for many thousands of years, but maybe, just maybe, it's time to accept reality<<<<

This is a rather typical assertion of the ordinary skeptic/atheist/agnostic.

The response that devastates such an assertion is quite simple: If this phusical realm is all that exists, why would it be preferrable to accept "reality" rather than wishful thinking?

Globacio,

Alternative realities are usually pleasant to the beholder. Some people dig up some ole weed that grows down the river and smoke it. A little fermented fruit juice can also induce a pleasant alternative reality.

BUT if the problem is that somebody is going to get hurt due to an person locked into an alternative reality, whether it's divinely, alcoholicly,chemically, or dispositionally induced.

Drunk driving comes to mind, Religiously motivated judgments is another, lying around stoned while your kids starve is another.

IF you are making decisions while you are drunk, stoned, praying or paranoid somebody is "REALLY" apt to get hurt.

Foxfyre,

Therin lies the rub. A spiritually induced alternative reality is real to the person involved. No doubt about it.(I'm much more handsome when I'm half drunk but I don't realize that I'm drunk) If that reality cannot be shown to actually be observed by another person then we must consider the possibility that our reality may not actually exist. And since it may not exist it can hardly be used as a basis for our behavior as civilized people.
Alas, we do often permit someones elses realities to determine our own public behavior. Not always to humanity's benefit.

Derevon,

A person actually sees with the brain. The eyes are only receptors.
A blind person may normally be expected to have all his brain parts but perhaps a damaged connection or lens. Therefore it's perfectly possible even likely, for him to "see" what he has only imagined.

The entire life in review. That would be akin to dreaming. Since there is basically no limit to the speed at which thoughts can be processed there is no requirement that imagination must proceed in "real time". Neither is there any requirement that imagination has to conform to experience.


Personally I have dreamed of doing a whole days work during a 1/2 hour nap. It was so real that I woke up exausted. I understand how it happens. Especially when I eat a lot of garlic seasoning

When I was younger I had a lot to do with water. Lifesaving, free and SCUBA diving, swimming team in high school etc.

Every once in a while I have a dream in which I had gone out for some reason and free dived very deeply. I had obtained my objective (it varies) and was heading for the surface. Finally I could not hold my breath any longer and, ready to die, I inhaled. The surprise when I inhaled air was so great that I woke up instantly. Winded completely, I had actually been holding my breath whilst asleep in conformance to the dream. Sleep apnea, no. Just proof of the power of the unconcious mind.

Don't believe me. There is quite a lot or research on dreaming and sleep disorders going on from time to time. Look it up if you are interested. I think that you will find that I have done some homework on it .

Ros, re your post, Information lost.

If it wasn't so late here I think that I would contend that information could be described as order. Then when the dandelion died the rules of entrophy would prevail.

The information wasn't lost it was merely disordered.

I think that you can describe life as a process which tends to reverse entrophy by the addition of energy but I'm not gonna try it now.

Goodnight.

>>>Alternative realities are usually pleasant to the beholder. Some people dig up some ole weed that grows down the river and smoke it. A little fermented fruit juice can also induce a pleasant alternative reality.

BUT if the problem is that somebody is going to get hurt due to an person locked into an alternative reality, whether it's divinely, alcoholicly,chemically, or dispositionally induced.

Drunk driving comes to mind, Religiously motivated judgments is another, lying around stoned while your kids starve is another.

IF you are making decisions while you are drunk, stoned, praying or paranoid somebody is "REALLY" apt to get hurt.<<<<

As expected, the thrust of my question - to examine the teliological bearing of a "purely physical realm" upon the practical aspects of daily living - wasn't really examined.

Let's try again ... If the purely physical realm is all that exists, why NOT starve my kids? What diffrence does it ultimately make?

Assuming the stance of pure physicality, one must acknowledge that our "experience" of what we call "consciousness" is simply the result of a biochemical reaction that lasts a mere 80-100 years. Given that the universe is billions of years old, our tiny strip of self-awareness is so pitiful as to be insignificant.

Furthermore, consider the fact that, in time, our solar system will be destroyed by our sun. Everything we've ever done, said, thought - our entire history and existence - will be wiped out. And considering the size of our galaxy alone, our destruction won't even be noticed. (In fact, the universe is so large that the destruction of our entire galaxy is utterly unnoticable.)

Given all of this, why NOT starve my kids? Or, on the other hand, why not raise them to be a good source of protein? In fact, I would hold that, should I be absolutely convinced that the physical realm is all that exists, I'd have no problem going to the nearest neonatal unit, butchering the babies, and then killing myself before the police arrive.

You see, pure physicality = pure meaninglessness, pure insignificance. Hence the very presumption of a solely physical universe destroys the holder's right to any qualifications.

Very few of these kinds of "philosophers" are courageous enough to delve into the implications of their position. Which tells us that such a position is based more on emotion (usually an emotional reaction to traditional theism and its claims) than on logic. The only exceptions that come to mind are Nietzsche, Sartre & Camus (the last of which noted that the only serious philosophical question is whether or not to commit suicide).

So, again, why NOT hold to alternative realities?

NDEs and out-of-body experiences have been conclusively proven to be completely natural in origin. They can both be replicated in the lab easily.

I suppose you are referring to some NDE- or OBE-like experiences which have been triggered by for example stimulation of certain parts of the brain or drugs. To claim that an experience is entirely natural in origin just because it's triggered by natural phenomena hardly constitutes evidence for the experiences themselves being natural in origin. If I hit you in the head with a hammer and you have an NDE, does that mean that the experience is natural as well becaused it was caused with something natural (a hammer)? Body and spirit are intrinsically linked to one another; no one really knows how they operate together. NDE:s are far from being understood, and it's pure nonsense to claim that it's been "conclusively proven" that they are completely natural experiences.

Globachio, Re your post of May 13 5:30 AM

Why shouldn't you starve your kids

Because it makes the survival of your genome and subsequently the species rather chancy. In other words "poor parenting", when it occurs, is selected out. Natural Selection favors survival. And if humans happen to select themselves out ( by leaving themselves open to cosmic accidents, or radiation sickness) then it probably will not change the Cosmos in any meaningful way.

"I see- pure physicality=pure meaninglessness". So what I don't find that remarkable Nor do I have any trouble accepting it. That seems to be the way it is.

Later we may be able to reach for the stars, but I am inclined to think that the probability is that we will exaust the Earth first with our little squabbles about the names and qualities of our imaginations. .

Derevon,
Perhaps you would like to describe a "spiritual" experience.

Perhaps a miracle, a prediction, or an event that cannot reasonably be explained by physics, quantum mechanics, human culpability, gullibility, or avarice. I don't want absolute proof, merely an indication that such occurrence is more probable to have happened by some sort of spiritual intervention than by the effects of natural laws applied over a potential infinity.

Personally I am biased. I, and perhaps Cephus, will attempt to discredit our biases and perhaps have them examined also. Perhaps you would like to nominate an umpire

Fair

it is important to keep in mind what science and reality really are;

reality is the nature of the existence that we experience as it relates to the objects and entities with which we interact.

science is merely the formalized documentation of reality.

necessarily, both are compromises, based upon opinion, and backed up by force of numbers.

ILZ needs to clarify his question here. How exactly do you define 'physical'?

akaMechsmith,

Isn't that just what I did? In my opinion their are very strong indications that NDE:s are spiritual in origin as I've pointed out in previous posts. Besides, there is simply no reason why NDE:s would exist from an evolutional point of view. What would the purpose be with people experiencing extraordinary things when they are about to die as far as natural selection is concerned? None whatsoever. All in all, I simply find it more likely that consciousness is separate from the body. I find it very hard to believe that consciousness and self-awareness would be the result of some random genetic mutation that has somehow managed to remain in the genepool, despite not filling any survival function.

i totally agree; however, pointing out what something most definitely isn't, does not in any way confer evidence as to what it is!

to anyone like myself who requires a modicum of evidence beyond 'hearsay', NDE appears to be no more than the equivalent of the visible aspects of a computer being shut down!