Christianity does have some positive aspects.

I agree, Coluber. Consider the Christian mystics and even the teachings of Jesus himself. But it does seem when Jesus "pointed the way" his followers for the most part chose to suck his finger for comfort.

Good one, JL! It reminds me of the Buddhist parable where the teacher points to the moon and asks the children to draw it. One child draws the teacher's finger.

When I watch the old Joseph Campbell video, "The Power of Myth," It's easy to see the beauty of any religion. The way he presents it, religion is poetry. However, taking religion or poetry literally misses the point.

I can see that "religion as fact" plays an important role in cultures without much science, such as the aborigines of Australia and even much more developed cultures, but it seems to me that when science evolves in a culture, religion must also evolve. When religion sees science as a threat, then its time to alter the myths of the religion.

Coluber, it's so nice to read the thoughts of a sophisticated religious person.

thinking about this topic, I remembered that Kachina (Katsinas) dolls as used in the Hopi culture are introduced to the children as quite simply dolls for playing with and telling story/myths which over time and maturity develop into the spiritual cosmology of the entire culture. I find this to be an amazing cultural insight that bridges the everyday world of childrens toys/dolls into an adult understanding of Hopi (human) theology that connects both the child and the adult to the world he/she lives in with relatively little dogma.
just a thought.

In India it was custom to create small figures representative of the family; aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. The children of India learned about family by playing with the little dolls made of unfired clay. The ones that still exist are quite valuable.

Which lead me back to myth - stories told around the world to children to teach them how to live using symbols. I loved the Joseph Campbell series on PBS. When I had cable TV I used to watch all his lectures that were videoed at NYU. His classes must have been so wonderful.

What is most fascinating about religion is it's ability as a motivator to create and build so many beautiful buildings of worship no matter which culture. I've seen quite a few of them, and I'm always impressed with their beauty.

I disagree that that is what is most fascinating.

Here's only one example in Japan.

I was impressed with the more recent cathedrals in Russia. Or, I suppose, the more recently renovated ones.

What I never understand is why, I love the architecture of the cathedrals of Europe but cannot understand how a building can change or enhance faith.

I have heard that Sunday morning in the US is the most segregated hour in the world.

I've been neither to Europe nor in a gothic cathedral, but I understand the experience is spontaneous "cosmic consciousness," a phrase coined by Alan Watts. Joseph Campbell said as much about his experiences in cathedrals in his book and video, "The Power of Myth."

I've had numerous similar experiences in natural settings. Occassionally, around sunset, an orange glow permeates the air. Time stops and the mind is quiet; it's spontaneous "cosmic consciousness." Last winter in Dallas, we had one of those rare snowfalls with huge wet snow crystals that collected on trees and everything else; that was "cosmic consciousness" too. I've felt the same way in early spring amidst flowering Mexican Plum trees.


These are just a few examples of innumerable natural scenes that have given me glimpses of eternity.

While not religious, I see the beauty inherent in ALL religion. Once the fanatics stop yelling, I think it will all be okay. I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell as well. A reference to Campbell by one of the chefs I worked for made me realize how to whack a Boston lettuce just right, to remove the tough core, without having to use a knife.

Salaam Alaikum!

Fortunately or unfortunately, what the fanatics rant is the actuality of their faith. What's been on the opposite side is a liberal fancy. Lately, there have been these liberal Christians, Jews and Muslims who make repetitive claims about the "liberalism" of their faith; and they try, grudgingly, to purge out their liberal credentials. I find such prevaricating and mendacious in a very fundamental way.

--Ibn

Re: Christianity does have some positive aspects.


Rephrase this statement substituting "The Simpsons" or "Nazism" or "Baking Cheesecake" for the word "Christianity" and the statement would still ring true to the same extent. My point being that anything can be analyzed, interpreted, and twisted enough to find profound beauty in it. The question isn't whether Christianity has any redeeming aspects; the question is whether those good points can overcome the mountains of retardation that have been the hallmark of Christian history. The answer, in case you were wondering, is a vehement no.

just don't mistake the menu for the meal.

churches and temples are neat things, but they are, after all just piles of stones which pale in comparison to what a religion is supposed to do for an individual's inards.

"Supposed to do" is where it breaks down.

Christianity is many things to many people.

Which one represents "mountains of retardation"?
Which one represents "enormous beauty"?

Sure, there are many hypocritical Christians. News flash: hypocrisy is a human universal. Corollary: we only see the other guy's hypocrisy.

Sure, there are many who use Christianity as a means to their own selfish ends. News flash: exploitation (esp. of the valuable) is a human universal.

If folks would be willing to look at the teaching of Jesus, without regard to the ability of the masses to implement it (could you follow his path any better?), they would see beauty.

Even that old misogynist St. Paul had some good things to say...his summary of Christian behavior is essentially "be honest, work hard, be kind and forgiving; avoid anger, greed and impurity."

James has it similarly: "God's idea of religion is to look after ophans and widows and to keep oneself from being polluted."

History is not just a tale of evil either: Christianity has been instrumental in hospitals, schooling, orphanages and charitable work world-wide.

After all, Jesus makes it plain that just giving him lip service isn't sufficient, and his criterion for the authenticity of our Christianity (perhaps the only one that "counts" ultimately) is how we treat the "least"...

Christianity does have one good aspect; beautiful cathedrals in Europe...... if you can get past the slave labor used to build them that resulted in thousands upon thousands of cruel deaths. They certainly were the teachings of Jesus put to damn good use. Amen!

On the consciousness thread, Terry correctly characterizes human progress by (in part) the facts that:
One would require a particularly prejudiced eye toward history not to attribute at least some of the credit for these advances to Christianity and the teachings of Jesus in particular.