A Visit from the Spirit Realm

Foxfyre wrote:

How can you tell Craven? Only the head of your bunny shows.

Huh?

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Craven, do your surveys include all the panoply of male priests and ministers and monks and such in christianity and islam and judaism and so on, or just non-organized spirituality?

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dlowan wrote:

Hmmm - I generally work out bad stuff in mine. As when someone (including animals) dies, they will keep appearing in my dreams - but with a catch - I have to do something in order to keep them alive, such as make a telephone call, and I can't, because my fingers fumble too much etc. Very wearing.

We have trouble moving in dreams, so I understand, because our bodies are relatively immoveable during sleep - some chemical or other retards leg movement etc...

Oh, I don't remember feeling like I've had to do something to try and keep anybody or any critter alive (Though now it's been suggested to my subconscious... who knows?) That would be horribly wearing and so unfair. It isn't your fault, I'm sure!

Very interesting that others may also have trouble moving in dreams and there is a chemical basis. I don't remember always feeling immobilized, but I do think I glide a lot, so I'm not really picking up my feet.

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Quote:

Huh?

Well his icon was a bunny when he made his post. There oughta be a law about changing icons after somebody has insul.....er commented on it.

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If people didn't go around pushing the idea of spirits the concept would probably never cross my mind. I just don't believe in such things and I don't see evidence they could even remotely exist in any way shape or form.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:
Huh?

Well his icon was a bunny when he made his post. There oughta be a law about changing icons after somebody has insul.....er commented on it.

aha - lol

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edgarblythe wrote:

If people didn't go around pushing the idea of spirits the concept would probably never cross my mind. I just don't believe in such things and I don't see evidence they could even remotely exist in any way shape or form.

Have you ever known anyone who had a near-death-experience? That is fairly common and makes many people feel they have "evidence" of something beyond this world.

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Yep. Didn't alter anything for me. When they die and stay dead and then tell me their story I am more apt to become a believer.

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Yeah - but NDEs make sense in terms of anoxia and endorphins, too.

Interestingly, they have quite a profound and often very positive (psychologically speaking) effect on many who experience them - at least according to studies i have read.

be funny if we can have mystical transformations from anoxia and a few natural happy drugs!

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I know how these people feel about their experience, and I din't belittle them for it; I just happen to look at it from a different perspective.

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Just like any other belief, it comes from your own experience, not someone else's.

For me, just being around my father after his first near-death-experience was enough to see that he was a seriously changed man. He went from being a hard-charging cynic and all-around grumpy guy, to someone who was so relaxed, happy and grateful for the rest of his very limited time on earth. He had lots of patience, no longer got angry, and became very open about his feelings.

It was such a change that no story needed to be told by him, it was all attitude. Everybody noticed it. It was as if Jack Nicholson turned into Alan Arkin.

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Yes - thing is, as I noted, that is not that unusual - though wondrous for those affected - however, the transformation is not necessarily evidence for an actual "spiritual" experience - do you see? It is certainly evidence for the PERCEPTION of such - that is not in doubt.

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I think the root of the human belief in a spiritual realm and the soul is our powerful need to believe that life somehow goes on after death.

Its odd that most of us are not nearly as troubled with supplying ourselves with a life before birth.

This is probably a minority view, but I can't imagine any eternal life that would not turn into hell eventually....not that I wouldn't want to live a few hundred years longer than I will. But my wish for oblivion would be strong long before I consumed my two billionth slice of non-fattening cheesecake.

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Well, I have a question. Is it possible that we create this spirit realm because life on earth is basically enslavement, or at it's minimum, a modern form of indentured servitude, and to dream is to continue to have hope?

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good one greyfan, and funny too...

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dlowan wrote:

Yes - thing is, as I noted, that is not that unusual - though wondrous for those affected - however, the transformation is not necessarily evidence for an actual "spiritual" experience - do you see? It is certainly evidence for the PERCEPTION of such - that is not in doubt.

Oh yeah, I definitely see this... it could be some strange hormone leaking into our reptilian brain. In my father's case (and I bring up these anecdotes only because I am closest to them) it was his own perception that his spirit could continue outside his body that made him a happier man.

As for Greyfan's comment about a continuing hell and Cav's question about dreaming to get away from the "enslavement" of life, I was recently telling Ossobucco about a friend who believes in what she calls The Church of Hell. We're in it now and these small glimpses of freedom experienced by leaving this sphere are comforting.

I don't think anybody is going to change anyone else's mind. People either believe there is a spiritual dimension because of religion or philosophy or during the course of their life encounter one or more circumstances that point to a continuation of personality... or they don't.
<shrugs>

Who is going to tell Cav that what he experienced as a child is false? Not I.

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Nor I, Pifka.

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Lol - nor, necessarily, I - but I am certainly very sceptical - except with a small part of myself where I amn't - and want to believe very hard!

Er - is it unacceptable on this thread to argue? Just getting a feeling of that....

By the way - if all the spirit manifestations of hauntings and such are real, any afterlife would seem to be a miserable thing - no? Who on earth would want to spend an eternity rattling chains and rapping tables?

Don't the dead have a life, goddamn it?

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According to those who actively track ghosts, it seems that they still think they are alive. Only an intervention can help them "pass over".

Whatever their political leanings, I suspect that some of the E.V.P. recordings of ghosts here will creep you out, perhaps even make you beeleeeeve:

http://www.ghostpix.com/

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If one person I consider credible tells me what s/he saw or what s/he experienced, but it doesn't seem plausible, I chalk it up to a curiosity at best, a misinterpretation at worst.

If two credible people recount similar experiences, it becomes more interesting.

If a dozen credible people recount similar experiences, the matter becomes worthy of serious research.

If millions of credible people recount similar experiences, perhaps the sensible thing is to give serious consideration to the possibility there is something to it

I know enough people and have read the testimony of enough people to believe that people who 'see ghosts' are in fact seeing something. I am not yet prepared to say that I know what that something is. The same with the NDE folks etc. I do think one form of intelligence is not closing the mind to possibilities.

And dlowan I don't think we're arguing here so much as discussing. Smile

I love the subject and wouldn't enjoy it so much if we all already agreed on everything.

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A Visit from the Spirit Realm

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