Where does it Stop?

I'm trying to understand this. These are 3 people who didn't show up for class and didn't request refunds, am I right? Then, um, I don't see the danger or the problem (I may be completely missing the point here) - isn't this just a matter of the company offering the course keeping the fees and that's that? How is this different from you and me agreeing to take a Spanish class, not showing up, and forfeiting our deposits? Isn't it the same thing?

Please tell me what I'm not getting here.

If you had invested $8000 in courses, wouldnt you go and try and get your money back, if you decided it was not something you really wanted to do. I mean who has that sort of money to give away? It is suspicious. And with the Americas Cup in our country at the moment, which is an hour and a half drive away, doesnt rest easy with people as it is. Everybody knows that the Americas Cup challenge is a target if ever there was one.

I think its something we cant just ignore that someone has forfeited underwater explosive training, when the Americas Cup is 'just up the road'.

I can't quite make the connection either, Celticlover, but when you put mid easterners, explosives, covert operations such as diving, big bucks paid up front, and missing people not claiming that kind of money, the hairs on the back of my neck get a little tingly too. Put it down to personal prejudice if you wish.

Well, Celticclover, I have no idea if these were three men on a nefarious training mission, or three rich kids off to learn how to dive, who maybe got scared of being picked on in a strange country what with all the furore and all, or whose parents said to stay home, there's gonna be a war and we want you home....but the reality is we have to keep an eye out.

However, to start saying that we "let these people in, and they are welcomed.... and this is what they do to us" seems a bit out there. Both our countries have taken a lot of people in (although my country is behaving like a bastard to people whose refugee status has not been accepted right now, to my shame) and we both encourage and welcome international visitors - so far, at least since the French blew up the Rainbow Warrior in your country and somebody relating to India in some way tried to blow up the Indian prime Minister in mine - none of "these people" has done anything within our borders, and I can't quite see where you are coming from.

If terrorists, either home-grown or imported, are active in our countries, let us hope we find out in time - and let us hope we are vigilant without being paranoid and xenophobic.

I am not quite sure what you mean when you say " Where does it stop? When do we say when, that we have had enough? That they have no right to do this to anyone? "

I am not aware that anyone very much is saying they do have a right to do this. Some are trying to understand where the impetus comes from, and wondering if we can do anything to fight this problem in a more holistic and permanent way, but I don't think anyone is saying "ok, let 'em go".

Could you explain more of what you think should be happening? Other than your police responding faster?

Well, I guess, the companies that arrange courses referring to skills that can be used for military/paramilitary/terror actions should be restricted from accepting foreigners without permission of the governmental security services. By the way, maybe it is better that all the students of such courses to be registered in the special lists: sometimes it happens that a terrorist is not a foreigner, but a disappointed native citizen (e.g., Timothy McVeigh).
Admittance to the courses should include as a prerequisite mental health and criminal records checks, and people that do not meet the requirements should not be permitted to take such courses. I know that in the USSR people having mental/personality disorders and/or criminal record could not take courses of air plane flights, could not attend firing ranges for sports purposes, and the people having undergone special training courses while being soldiers (for example, they were paratroopers or marines) appeared on special lists of police/national security as people possessing dangerous skills. This did not affect their civil rights, but in case some crime was committed with usage of special skills, it was easier to track and neutralize the perpetrator.

I don't know if my country really investigates those training in the use of explosives, but the purchase of them and all other operations involving transport, storage, and use are well monitored and all items are accounted for. This seems as obvious as checking out student pilots training on commercial airline simulators interested in everything except landing. The company I work for is licensed to store up to 50 pounds of 1.4 explosivess, and to receive shipments I had to fill out an ATF form.

Surely, it wouldn't be too intrusive to inquire the reasons for taking such a course?

It makes me really angry, and its a wide discussion where most people, are of the same frame of mind, we need to stop the immigration flow as its costing us dearly. Here, the refugees get $20 something thousand to start up home upon entering the country, to buy furniture, cars etc. None of the hard working kiwis who live here and want to move out of home to start their adult life get this assistance, so why are they? None of them are in employment, very rarely do you see them in jobs as we are expected to, by our own standards and that of what we are brought up with. No Kiwi can go to any country in this world and have the same bestowed upon them. And some drive nicer cars than alot of us, with no job intact!
Then there is the fighting on our streets, where young ones have died, all because of racial issues. The last one I recall dying was a young Tongan boy who on his birthday went to visit his girlfriend and baby, he never made it, he was stabbed in the neck by a group of Somali's. Thats what I mean by where does it stop. I could go on here and I will if you want me to, but they strain the resourses we have, and now we have potential terrorists....I believe its a case of having to be here, where we have had the terrorist alerts because of the America Cup challenge, the immigration upheaval on the 6 o'clock news, the constant debate, and knowing we have to work for everything we have got and to keep doing it, the tax issues where everything is on the rise. Also, the fact we are a smaller country and the rise in immigrants is definitely noticeable.
So that what I mean by its got to stop, we have an overwhelming issue here, our teachers are strained because their classes are filling up with more non speaking english children.
WE are all paying the price, and truthfully its not fair. Enough is enough.

Re: Where does it Stop?

It might be a good idea to look Italians over a bit more carefully too to make sure they're not famous international mafia heads running from the law, or Columbians to check if you recognize them as well-known drug lords in disguise. Here in Japan, Arabs aren't all that famous for much of anything, but some of the nastiest, most needlessly violent people around are the Israeli mafia. Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that it's foolish to base a prejudice on any race's most notorious characters.

Heavens, CC - xenophobic Australians could, and have, said all those things about New Zealanders coming here - until the access to Social Security rules were changed - very recently!

That is the kind of nonsense that gets promulgated about all immigrants - the Aboriginal people here say, quite rightly, that the whites who invaded Oz first were the most disturbed and violent of their breed!

Refugees are helped because most people accept that there is a duty of care and compassion to people who have suffered terribly because of mere accident of birth, and because this is, in the end, a small global community of people floating in the vast reaches of space.

Settle down, please! I know it is frightening when terror first approaches your doorstep - but I do not believe that this kind of stuff is helpful to anyone.

I am sorry you are feeling so distressed - but losing a sense of proportion will not help you feel better.

By the way, we should not underestimate dangers stemming from people that mastered diving. In late '50s (sic!) the group of retired Italian combat divers led by Prince Valerio di Borghese that were in active service under Mussolini managed to explode the Soviet battleship in the bay of Sevastopol. This ship was taken by the USSR from Italy as a part of war reparations, and the retired fascist divers destroyed it.
About immigrants: I think that refugees should be accepted, but benefits they get should be conditioned with their working. The ones that do not work should not get benefits, and should be left in some tent camps. I am going to immigrate myself (to Australia) as a required professional, but I know that first two years I am not eligible to unemployment benefits, and I believe that this is fair: I have not yet contributed a penny into the state budget of the Commonwealth of Australia, hence I cannot get anything from this source. The same approach should be applied to the people claiming to be refugees: after brief English courses they should be obliged to start working; only then they should get some assistance from the budget (they come without any property, so they need help, but this help must not encourage parasitism). And those involved in criminal activities (including street brawling) should be expelled after having served a jail term for their felonies/misdemeanors.

One more thing: I am aware of young Israelis trespassing Japanese laws, and their behavior makes me ashamed for sharing the same citizenship with them. But, to my mind, Japanese policies toward them must be changed.
Unlike Thailand, Japan is an expensive country, and Israeli backpackers should not be permitted to cross the border if they do not possess at least 5,000,000 Yen or corresponding sum in U.S. $. If someone comes with $100-500 in the pocket, I can be sure that he is going either to work illegally or to be involved in other illegal activities. Such people should not be permitted to enter Japan without any explanations. Israeli immigration service practices the same policies toward moneyless people from Sub-Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe and Thailand. We have a quote for guest workers, and people coming without money only aggravate situation on the jobs market (unemployment in Israel is currently about 11 percent). I think the same approach to Israeli backpackers that do not possess enough money is justified and fair.

Celticclover- I understand exactly what you are saying, and I understand your fearfulness. IMO, there is SOME possibility that the three men were in the same position as the terrorists who went to flight school in the U.S. It is possible that they realized that people were observing them, so they quit before finishing the course.

On the other hand, Celticclover, IMO, it is important that you don't "paint with too broad a brush". Every immigrant is NOT a terrorist. The vast majority are just everyday people who are looking for a better life in your country.

I think that you are going through the same anxietyand anger that beseiged many Americans after they learned about the terrorists in the flight school. The people that you need to be angry with, are the officials who let these guys get away. People need to write to your government to pass laws that would prevent these sorts of things from happening- thorough checks of foreigners enrolling in courses that have potential for use by terrorists.

Steissd, OK well I really don't wanna start any kind of topic about Israelis in Japan here, but what you're saying is a little silly. I'm not clear on all Japan's tourism/immigration laws, but policy is certainly neither to let people come in "without any explanations" nor "with $100-500 in the pocket." And come on!--¥5,000,000 (US$40,000)? That's a little harsh, no? I haven't come close to owning that much money at one time in my life yet; still I'm a foreigner who's managed here just fine.

Monger, I added erroneously an excessive zero. I meant $4,000, and not $40,000.

While I am aware that what happens here is a world wide thing, I am taking care of 'my own backyard'.
I have no problem with people who move here and do create a better life for themselves and their families, by gaining employment and education, abiding by the laws and regulations. I do have a problem with people that come here and live off the government, while the ones who are etching something for themselves are taxed higher, and get no assistance whatsoever.

I respect the fact other people have their beliefs and opinions on all of this, however, my opinion is, immigration has got to stop for us. I know some people are going to dislike me for that - its to be expected, that is how I feel.

If you knew that in the next 1,000 immigrants there was 1 terrorist amongst them but you didnt know who it was....how many if any, would you let in?

CC - more people are killed each year in the U.S. by drunk-driving than by any terrorist action to date. Do we expect the U.S. to say that visitors/immigrants must sign a pledge vowing never to drink? I know that more women in Canada are murdered by their life partners than by any other defined group of people. Should women be told never to marry because of this?

While we all need to be cautious and aware of what is going on around us, it is extremely dangerous to focus energies only on fear of immigrants. The most dangerous people in many countries are already there, and have been for some time.