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the mother of all paradoxes

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2004 08:53 pm
sigh.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 May, 2004 08:56 pm
Randall Patrick wrote:
With all due respect this is precisely the pedantic recipe one gets from folks who insist that philosophy is first and foremost about Analyzing Reality into existence conceptually, scholastically, academically with language----concocting a terminology so as to define Rationally and Logically the only possible thing Paradox Can Mean. It is as though the word paradox is transfigured into a Thing. As though it were a rock one could pull out of one's pockets and exclaim, "look everyone, I have Paradox here".

Sorry, Randall, you'll have to do better than that. You accuse me of unfairly demanding terminological exactitude, yet, in the very next paragraph, you attempt to impose your own.

As it is, I'm not the one "concoting a terminology" here. "Paradox" has a well-established meaning in philosophy. If you plan to impose your own definitions on such philosophic terms and use them in a philosophy forum, you should do us all a favor and make it clear that you intend to employ those terms in an idiosyncratic manner.

Randall Patrick wrote:
If that is important to you, fine. It is, however, not nearly as important to me. For me when folks speak of a paradox they are speaking of ways of looking at the world around them such that one can encompass a meaning that seems reasonable while at the same time seeming to be contradictory.


http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lg29.gif
'There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 08:31 am
JLN: There's no thread hijacking here. If Randall Patrick wants to talk about "the mother of all" logical paradoxes, then he should be prepared to talk about logical paradoxes. If, on the other hand, he really wants to talk about metaphysics and spirituality, then he is certainly free to do so: in that event, I will have nothing further to add to this discussion.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 11:06 am
Joe, sorry. You're right. Randall DID entitle the thread "The mother of all Paradoxes." I started reading with his question. Embarrassed
I do hope that we continue to address his interesting "existential dilemma", or whatever it should be called.. It may prove fruitful.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 11:16 am
The real question is, as Humpty Dumpty is a giant egg, how and why did he turn into a line of potato chip products and not a huge omelette when he fell off that wall? Given that he could not be put together again, despite the efforts of all the king's men, one would assume that an omelette would have been the logical choice. Sure, eggs need to be broken to make an omelette, but eggs, broken or not, just don't make potato chips.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 01:35 pm
And embryology cannot proceed with scrambled eggs. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 01:45 pm
JLNobody wrote:
And embryology cannot proceed with scrambled eggs. Rolling Eyes


Well, true. However, while embryology may not be helped by scrambled eggs, the mixture of beaten eggs, butter and cream, perhaps some snipped chives, does indeed make a fine and tasty dish that sustains and delights us, especially with nice multi-grain toast.
0 Replies
 
Randall Patrick
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 05:54 pm
CRAVEN:

....were it not for the codification of meanings discussion itself would be impossible.

RP:

Whose code, however, yours? Are you the one who gets to define What A Paradox REALLY Is? There is, in fact, no Logical or Rational manner in which we can objectively or essentially or universally "codify" many aspects of human relationships respecting What Words Mean. But that does not make discussions or human communication impossible, does it? Reasonable people agree to disagree all the time about virually every moral, political and aesthetic issue---yet the world doesn't stop going around. Instead, folks tend to moderate the extremes and agree through compromising and negociation to legislate a point of view that falls somewhere in the middle of the spectum. You act as though my own sense of paradox regarding the crucial relationship between meaning and death was completely irrational or nonesensensical. As though I said, "because we die traffic laws are green; and because we die traffic laws are not green".

There are words that denote meaning objectively [hammer, finger, umbrella, Venus]. And there are words that only connote a particular existential vantage point [freedom, justice, good, bad]. Words like paradox, of course, fall somewhere inbetween. If you don't like the manner in which I encompassed it [by way of the particular example I broached] fine by me. It doesn't make it any less a paradox in my book, however.

RP
0 Replies
 
Randall Patrick
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 06:23 pm
Joe:

You accuse me of unfairly demanding terminological exactitude, yet, in the very next paragraph, you attempt to impose your own.

RP:

In that case I apologize, of course. And let me go on the record and state upfront that from now on any words I use in future posts will express only the manner in which I have come to understand their meaning existentially based, in turn, on all of the actual experiences I have had and how I have come to understand what those experiences infer about the world I live in. I am not God. I am not omnscient. I am a mere mortal with all that implies respecting what I can or cannot know about "reality" in the cosmological context of All There Is. I suspect that also applies to all the rest of us too.

JOE:

As it is, I'm not the one "concoting a terminology" here. "Paradox" has a well-established meaning in philosophy. If you plan to impose your own definitions on such philosophic terms and use them in a philosophy forum, you should do us all a favor and make it clear that you intend to employ those terms in an idiosyncratic manner.

RP:

Okay. Would you mind listing all of the other [important] terms that Professional Philosophers have embraced such that it is understood by all there is but one objective meaning. Does that include words like God and Freedom and Justice and Moral and Immoral and Good and Bad? Are there Right and Wrong emotional and psychological reactions? Is there an essential manner in which to grasp the nature of human identity or works of art? Was Wittgenstein being illogical when he conjectured that human language has nothing metaphysical to say about most things that pass for human social interactions? Is the human condition itself amenable to epistemologically sound arguments? Can it be defined objectively?

JOE:

'There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

RP:


I'll bet Mr Dumpty would have a field day in the Bush Administration, right? After all, holding Don Rumsfeld responsible for what is now unfolding in Iraq really comes down to the precise philosophical meaning of the word Responsible, doesn't it? And until we know precisely What Responsibile Means we can't really know if anybody is responsible for anything at all, can we? After all, as Bill Clinton sugggested, what exactly IS "is"?

Did Professional Philosophers ever figure that out, by the way? ; )


RP
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 06:30 pm
Randall Patrick wrote:

Whose code, however, yours? Are you the one who gets to define What A Paradox REALLY Is?


No, I neither coined nor defined the term that you are using incorrectly. It's been defined quite simply and is a logical term, but with the thrust of your post I agree, if you want to call anything you feel like calling a paradox a paradox you are certainly free to do so. <shrugs>

Anywho, such equivocation with words isn't something I'll be using as a basis for discussion so I'll see ya around.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 08:58 pm
Wow, Cav. that's a great change of pace. I know what I'll have for breakfast tomorrow. Maybe a mid-night snack. Oh right, you're a chef.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 May, 2004 10:04 pm
Randall Patrick wrote:
In that case I apologize, of course. And let me go on the record and state upfront that from now on any words I use in future posts will express only the manner in which I have come to understand their meaning existentially based, in turn, on all of the actual experiences I have had and how I have come to understand what those experiences infer about the world I live in. I am not God. I am not omnscient. I am a mere mortal with all that implies respecting what I can or cannot know about "reality" in the cosmological context of All There Is. I suspect that also applies to all the rest of us too.

If those are the terms that you will insist upon in this thread, then I will not participate further.

Randall Patrick wrote:
Okay. Would you mind listing all of the other [important] terms that Professional Philosophers have embraced such that it is understood by all there is but one objective meaning. Does that include words like God and Freedom and Justice and Moral and Immoral and Good and Bad? Are there Right and Wrong emotional and psychological reactions? Is there an essential manner in which to grasp the nature of human identity or works of art? Was Wittgenstein being illogical when he conjectured that human language has nothing metaphysical to say about most things that pass for human social interactions? Is the human condition itself amenable to epistemologically sound arguments? Can it be defined objectively?

If you are looking for a good philosophical reference work on the internet, I suggest some of the links on this page. If, on the other hand, you're asking me for some philosophical instruction, then I must politely decline.

Randall Patrick wrote:
I'll bet Mr Dumpty would have a field day in the Bush Administration, right? After all, holding Don Rumsfeld responsible for what is now unfolding in Iraq really comes down to the precise philosophical meaning of the word Responsible, doesn't it? And until we know precisely What Responsibile Means we can't really know if anybody is responsible for anything at all, can we? After all, as Bill Clinton sugggested, what exactly IS "is"?

Did Professional Philosophers ever figure that out, by the way? ; )

You need not worry about my continued participation in this thread, Randall, so I encourage you to abandon these digressions and make a reasonable effort in getting to some kind of a point.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 May, 2004 02:54 pm
O.K., Cav. I had scrambed eggs for breakfast, but my cholesterol-conscious wife insisted on some modifications. Instead of butter, cream and whole eggs, she used olive oil, for the pan, and whipped some "vegenaise" (a wonderful tasting mayonaise substitute--the only sub I like--made with heart friendly grapeseed oil and sold at WholeFoods and a local coop store) into eggs with some of the yolk removed, and, of course, snipped chives. It was delightful, and healthful. What do you think?
0 Replies
 
Randall Patrick
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 03:08 pm
RP:

Whose code, however, yours? Are you the one who gets to define What A Paradox REALLY Is?

CRAVEN:

No, I neither coined nor defined the term that you are using incorrectly. It's been defined quite simply and is a logical term, but with the thrust of your post I agree, if you want to call anything you feel like calling a paradox a paradox you are certainly free to do so.

RP:

If you wish to construe my own sense of a paradoxical frame of mind as "philosophically incorrect" that is one thing. But then I did not express it in a strictly "logical" sense, did I? And to pretend that my own conjecture [given the context I expressed] amounts to me calling it whatever I feel like it is simply preposterous.


CRAVEN:

Anyhow, such equivocation with words isn't something I'll be using as a basis for discussion so I'll see ya around.

RP:

I'll try not to lose any sleep over it, okay? ; )


Randall Patrick
0 Replies
 
Randall Patrick
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 03:19 pm
RP:

In that case I apologize, of course. And let me go on the record and state upfront that from now on any words I use in future posts will express only the manner in which I have come to understand their meaning existentially based, in turn, on all of the actual experiences I have had and how I have come to understand what those experiences infer about the world I live in. I am not God. I am not omnscient. I am a mere mortal with all that implies respecting what I can or cannot know about "reality" in the cosmological context of All There Is. I suspect that also applies to all the rest of us too.


JOE:

If those are the terms that you will insist upon in this thread, then I will not participate further.

RP:

There are two kinds of words---those we can denote the meaning of objectively and those we can only express as existential vantage points. Alas, many of the most important words used in philosophical exchanges [those that revolve around moral and political and aesthetic discussions, those that convey emotional and psychological states, those that convey ontological and teleological conjectures etc] are not amenable to an objective frame of mind. So, the exchanges you pursue must be excruciatingly boring, in my view. As with Craven I will try not to lose any sleep if you deem my paradox unworthy of pursuing.


Randall patrick
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 May, 2004 06:22 pm
Pardon my presumption, RP, but please do what I am trying to do: lighten up. Your points are well taken. It seems that your general frame of reference and cognitive style differ in fundamental ways from those of Craven and Joe. No big thing. If Fresco, Twyvel and I can withstand the slings and arrows from that dynamic duo so can you. I'm sure you are going to be an on-going intellectual benefactor for the rest of us.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 May, 2004 04:03 am
JL,

We are casting no slings and arrows. I disagreed with Randall's interpretation, found out said disagreement was based on definitional incompatibility and decided to move on.

But your oblique digs have made participation on the philosophy forum unpleasant and since you seem to have fixated I'll just avoid participating in these discussions. I've no need for a monkey on my back characterizing my every disagreement as an attack.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 May, 2004 04:37 am
JLNobody wrote:
O.K., Cav. I had scrambed eggs for breakfast, but my cholesterol-conscious wife insisted on some modifications. Instead of butter, cream and whole eggs, she used olive oil, for the pan, and whipped some "vegenaise" (a wonderful tasting mayonaise substitute--the only sub I like--made with heart friendly grapeseed oil and sold at WholeFoods and a local coop store) into eggs with some of the yolk removed, and, of course, snipped chives. It was delightful, and healthful. What do you think?


Sounds good, JLN.

Now, RP can correct me if I misinterpereted anything here, but did you say that you wanted to define this concept of yours in existential terms? If so, I might suggest that even as depressing a philosophy as existentialism is, it has it's silver lining. I like to think of it as a reverse bell curve, when one feels the need for new lows, brooding introspection, and perhaps absinthe, in order to climb the steep other side towards becoming an integrated human being. I'm sure some find my food analogies trite, but when you work with food, there are a couple of things you realize: As Billy Crystal said in 'The Princess Bride', "There's dead, and there's not so dead." The second thing is that even dead things can be brought back to life through concentrated creativity and knowledge.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 May, 2004 03:17 pm
Craven, as Disney's hare would put it, "Unlax doc." I was jesting...with the bard's help.
Cav. Let's see how you like this reference to food to point to what I consider a central feature of existentialism (one that is far from depressing). Mexican peasants I have known tend to think of their food (their "humble" beans, tortillas and coffee with sugar, etc.) as virtually God given. When they go to the city and perhaps are served more complex dishes, they tend to not like them, considering them too unconventional. We tend to be cosmopolitan, inventive and exploratory. Actually small town Americans are almost as provincial in their tastes as are the peasants I mention). We ruralites see cuisine as not given but as invented. That is very much like the existentialists' insistence that we create our identities and other things. The world is of our making. Only "existence" is given.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 May, 2004 03:51 pm
And what you do with it, existence that is, in any way, is what defines a life. Best to get on with it, something, anything that catches your fancy than to brood about it, IMO. I don't feel the need to question what happens when I die. I'll find out later, or not, but either way, it's fine by me. Yes, I like that analogy, JLN.
0 Replies
 
 

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