6
   

Can Ukraine Join The EU AND Russia's Commonwealth?

 
 
Reply Thu 6 Mar, 2014 10:02 pm
With troops in the country, Putin is unlikely to withdraw and then just let Ukraine join the EU. Just as a guess, the best anyone can hope for is that Ukraine gets to keep the Crimea in return for joining Russia's little Commonwealth of Former Soviet Republics, or whatever they call it, that Putin is trying to set up. Putin has to get something out of this before he withdraws.

If Ukraine does join this Commonwealth, she still remains independent of Russia. I wonder if, after a few years and everything has calmed down, if Ukraine can't just join the EU while remaining in Russia's Commonwealth?
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Question • Score: 6 • Views: 2,164 • Replies: 35
No top replies

 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Mar, 2014 10:33 pm
@Blickers,
Can Ukraine join NATO ???





David
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Mar, 2014 11:23 pm
Apparently Ukraine was in the process of meeting some criteria to join NATO. However, NATO is a military alliance, the EU is basically an economic one. Just as Britain can be in the Commonwealth of Nations, (former Brit colonies) and the EU, and presumably African states can join whatever regional economic groups they want and remain in the Commonwealth, it might be possible for Russia to accept Ukraine in the EU, as opposed to NATO.

Poland, closely linked culturally and historically with Ukraine and which was also under Russian control, is a member of both NATO and the EU. That didn't cause any problems. One difference was that Ukraine was actually in the USSR, while Poland was theoretically an independent country which was under Soviet control. Still, the difference was not that great.

After this invasion, I don't see Putin withdrawing without getting something out of it-at the very least, I would think that would be Ukraine's membership in Russia's Commonwealth. If Ukraine can hang onto the Crimea, it will be doing well.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2014 12:44 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Can Ukraine join NATO ???

Yes. And Russia is screwed if Ukraine does.

North-central Ukraine is so close to Moscow that fighter jets based there could bomb Moscow in the same manner that fighter jets based in Saudi Arabia were able to bomb Baghdad in 1991.

I would imagine that the CIA would also be interested in having a base in north-central Ukraine, for launching stealth drones and the like.


Plus, western Ukraine has borders with Poland and Romania (both already in NATO). A line of fortified bases stretching from Poland to western Ukraine to Romania would provide a solid line of defense to protect most of Europe from Russian aggression.

However, if Russia only captures Crimea, and does not seize any other land from Ukraine, it may be that enough Russians will remain citizens of Ukraine to oppose such NATO membership.

The citizens of Georgia, however, are very much in favor of NATO membership. We need to get Georgia into NATO as quickly as possible, before Russia invades them again.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2014 12:53 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
If Ukraine does join this Commonwealth, she still remains independent of Russia. I wonder if, after a few years and everything has calmed down, if Ukraine can't just join the EU while remaining in Russia's Commonwealth?

I'm not sure. It might be hypothetically possible, but as a practical matter I think nations will have to choose only one or the other.

I think the best choice for Ukraine would be to not join either bloc, but instead stand as an independent buffer between the two powers. But unfortunately I don't think Washington and Moscow are going to allow them that option.
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2014 01:18 am
Quote:
But unfortunately I don't think Washington and Moscow are going to allow them that option.

It's hard to see what part Washington will play in this now. The only thing Washington did was get caught saying that the EU made a lousy offer to Ukraine. I think things are beyond the point now where we can affect what's going on there, at least for the forseeable future.

In the long term, I think the US might be able to get Moscow to give up whatever part of Ukraine it might annex, but it will take years. The Russian economy is not really getting stronger, it's growth rate is a scant 1.2% annually.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2014 02:20 am
@Blickers,
Ukraine was never going to join the EU. Turkey's been trying to join for years and still doesn't satisfy the criteria.

Ukraine is bankrupt, the last thing we need is a huge influx of Ukrainian economic migrants moving west on masse. Even if Russia allows Ukraine to leave the Russian federation they wouldn't be allowed to join the EU for a long long time.

When you open up the Mexican border and allow all of Latin America to come to the Unites States to work, then you can preach about who should join the EU.

Americans don't decide who joins the EU, it's down to us Europeans.

oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2014 05:08 am
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
The only thing Washington did was get caught saying that the EU made a lousy offer to Ukraine.

A couple weeks before the coup, US officials were recorded discussing who should and shouldn't be allowed into Ukraine's future new government, and how to make sure that all the right things happened to ensure the success of the coup. There was also some sort of unnamed question put to the future Ukrainian government, and Washington was very happy with the answer they received.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/angela-merkel-victoria-nuland-eu-unacceptable

Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2014 12:43 am
@izzythepush,
Never said the US has the right to tell the EU who to allow in, but if you are going to call yourselves the European Union and want to promote Europe as a force in the world, I just assumed you'd invite Ukraine in with loving arms. On another forum I visit that posts the national flag next to the poster's name, quite a few of the European posters forsake their specific nation's flag for the EU's flag and talk about Europe as a single entity.

I never realized that instead of a dynamic force, the EU is more like a trendy night spot where the "in" people go right through and the hoi polloi patiently wait outside hoping the doorman will decide to let them enter at some point.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2014 12:54 am
@oralloy,
Yes, you're right, I missed the significance of the phone call when the story broke. I knew disparaging things were said about the EU but I didn't realize all the ins and outs. That call does show the US becoming involved with and even trying to determine who would be in and who would be out in the new government. Embarrassing, to say the least.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Mar, 2014 01:49 am
@Blickers,
Have you any idea how overpopulated the UK is? You Americans have just put up a fence to stop immigrants coming in from Mexico, despite America being vast with plenty of room. And you have the cheek to tell us we should let in all of Ukraine as well.

When America has the same population density as the UK you can talk, until then it's just hypocrisy.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 11:25 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Have you any idea how overpopulated the UK is?


I checked the figures, the UK's only a little bit more densely populated than New Jersey. Yet I don't see Jersey preventing people from other states to move in.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2014 03:59 am
@Blickers,
That's completely irrelevant, New Jersey isn't a nation. We're talking about nations, and America puts up all sorts of barriers to immigrants.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2014 08:42 am
@izzythepush,
Going from one EU country to another is not the same as flinging open the door to all nations on Earth, as you would have the US do. The workers from an EU country will be documented, and they can only stay in their new country for 3 months to find work. Otherwise their new country can revoke their right to work there.

And New Jersey has no shortage of foreign born citizens, yet it's boat seems to be floating-no small feat when you have a load like Christie on board.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/finding-job-abroad/transferring-unemployment-benefits/index_en.htm
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2014 08:54 am
@Blickers,
As I'd have the US do? Have a word with yourself. You were just telling us to do exactly that. Note telling.

As it is, France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Greece, Malta, Austria, Switzerland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Luxembourg, Hungary, Ireland and Bulgaria already have free access.

When your population density approaches ours you can talk, until then you're just pissing in the wind.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2014 01:23 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
As it is, France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Greece, Malta, Austria, Switzerland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Luxembourg, Hungary, Ireland and Bulgaria already have free access.

When your population density approaches ours you can talk, until then you're just pissing in the wind.


I assumed when you joined the EU, you wanted to unite Europe. If you're so worried about your population density, why join the EU? You knew that Europeans would come with the deal.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2014 03:09 am
@Blickers,
You keep making assumptions, the EU or EEC or Common Market was all about Free Trade, not federalisation. The fact that Brussels has gradually taken more powers has resulted in quite a backlash against the EU, and the troubles of the Euro have only compounded that opinion. Anti EU parties are growing in popularity, and not just in the UK. UKIP, which still has no MPs in Westminster claims it will be the biggest UK party in Europe.

Then you come along, full of assumptions, with no idea of reality, thinking you should be able to dictate our immigration policy, while refusing to change yours to match. Why do you think nobody this side of the Atlantic listens? We've had more than enough of gobby, ignorant Americans.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2014 05:18 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
You keep making assumptions, the EU or EEC or Common Market was all about Free Trade, not federalisation. The fact that Brussels has gradually taken more powers has resulted in quite a backlash against the EU, and the troubles of the Euro have only compounded that opinion. Anti EU parties are growing in popularity, and not just in the UK. UKIP, which still has no MPs in Westminster claims it will be the biggest UK party in Europe.
(What does gobby mean??)
Thank u for contributing this information, Izzy. It is extremely welcome.
I have been fearing the approach of permanent one-world despotism (the Borg) for too long.

Technology is almost at the verge of being able to read people's thoughts.
When that actually HAPPENS, then it will be only a matter of time b4
designated thoughts will be required. The commies tried that already
in the 1950s, requiring self-reporting of thoughts.

That there is counter-pressure against collectivism is very cheerful and optimistic.

U have made me happy, Izzy





David
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2014 06:29 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Gobby means loudmouthed, especially when that opinion is based on ignorance as Blickers' certainly is.

I actually support the EU, but ignoring the negative consequences of unfettered expansion is lunacy. Prior to 2004, Polish was very much a minority language in the UK. Now it's the second most spoken language after English. At my son's primary school 5 children out of a class of 30 were Polish.

Notwithstanding the benefits that these, mostly, hard working immigrants have brought to this country, there has been a huge cultural shift. The then Labour government severely underestimated the amount of Poles that would come to the UK. The amount they forecast to enter the whole of the UK turned out to be the amount who just came to Southampton.

Southampton has always had a large Polish population, mostly servicemen and their families who decided to stay here rather than live behind the iron curtain after WW2. They were readily assimilated, most had been under British command in the forces, they adopted our customs and spoke English. Their children all have English accents, to all intents and purposes they are English, just with a funny name. This new tranche of Poles are unashamedly Polish, and a lot of people feel threatened, that our country is not our own any more.

For someone to blithely say that all the Ukrainians should be allowed to come over here with no consideration as to the impact that will have, or that Ukraine shouldn't even have to pass economic tests, is inviting anarchy. We have a housing crisis as things stand, and are one of the most densely populated countries on the planet without allowing a load more people in. Such a move could actually destroy the EU.

Certain people need to assume less, and learn a few facts before they start opening their big mouths. I would never presume to tell you how to conduct your immigration policy, other than in a light hearted manner, but Blickers thinks he has the right to dictate top a sovereign nation. And that opinion is based on assumptions, not reality.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2014 12:16 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Their children all have English accents, to all intents and purposes they are English, just with a funny name. This new tranche of Poles are unashamedly Polish, and a lot of people feel threatened, that our country is not our own any more.
I understand your concern
(tho I dont know what tranche means).



izzythepush wrote:
For someone to blithely say that all the Ukrainians should be allowed to come over here with no consideration as to the impact that will have, or that Ukraine shouldn't even have to pass economic tests, is inviting anarchy.
For MY part, I 'd never say such a thing!
I regret that England does not still have the same cultural outlook
that it did b4 the First World War; more freedom.





David
 

Related Topics

 
  1. Forums
  2. » Can Ukraine Join The EU AND Russia's Commonwealth?
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 08/17/2019 at 02:36:57