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Fri 23 Apr, 2004 03:10 pm
One staple of America has always been God. Another has always been freedom. Now if you believe in God, you most likely believe that God has a divine plan for us all. If that is true we have no freedom, for our paths have already been chosen. That now makes think, Why did God even create evil? I've always thought he did it because he loves us, and he wants to give us a choice. But as I've said, his divine plan make freedom impossible. So then why did God create evil? Did he not know what evil would do? Of course not, he is all-knowing. Did he create it knowing what it would do and simply not care? Of course not, he is a loving God. Did he accidently create it, and now can't rid the Earth of it? Of course not, he is omnipotent.
So, assuming God is real, do we have freedom? If not, why did he create evil?
we have just as much freedom as we think we have.
that pretty much sums it up I think
I'm not so sure a divine plan necessarily would make freedom impossible. Perhaps only the "final destiny" is set, and the freedom we have constitutes the roads to it which we choose. Perhaps the divine plan only encompasses those who wish to be a part of it. I really don't know.
As for evil, it's an unavoidable consequence of giving beings with limited wisdom free will. That leads to the question of why we have such a limited wisdom, but I will refrain from speculating about that.
According to Islam, God knows everything that u have done an will do but u choose what u want to do. in other words, ur doings are foreknown to God not preordained.
Regarding evil, this life now is not the perfect life for living rather it is the perfect for testing. God told us in the Quran that this life is almost nothing compared with paradise in the second life which is the perfect for living.
Re: God, Freedom, and Evil
Child of the Light wrote:... Now, if you believe in God...
It amazes me how much human thought (centuries of it) has gone into thinking about a paradox which doesn't even exist.
Since all these self imposed challenges to reality vanish if you simply drop the assumption of a personal God, it would seem reasonable to drop the assumption. But nooooo, a lot of people
like the assumption, so they keep it, and then attempt to warp the perception of reality to fit it.
You're saying that there aren't any paradoxes with an impersonal approach to ultimate reality?
Derevon wrote:You're saying that there aren't any paradoxes with an impersonal approach to ultimate reality?
Correct. But if you can give me an example of one, I will be glad to consider it, and to comment on it.
Stop inventing reasons why you are not free.
Poor God, all powerful, but can't seem to get out of our way.
.... Maybe if he, HE, She-who-must-be-obeyed, were a fig newton of your imaginations all the obstacles would vanish.
Poof. Free as birds.
Oh and welcome Ammar... please tell us more.
Joe
Rosborne979,
Here's one:
If you don't ascribe consciousness to ultimate reality, how then can you explain the fact that we humans have consciousness? In essence that would mean that we stand above ultimate reality which is a contradiction.
Derevon wrote:If you don't ascribe consciousness to ultimate reality, how then can you explain the fact that we humans have consciousness? In essence that would mean that we stand above ultimate reality which is a contradiction.
But we humans *do* have consciousness, and we *are* a natural part of reality, so in that sense I do ascribe consciousness to ultimate reality. But I don't call this aspect of things a personal God. Do you?
I think you're just having trouble believing that consciousness can arise from natural processes. But when we look around all we see are natural processes, and the more we learn, the more it becomes apparent that life is a result of these processes.
The only way your statement can become a paradox is to assume that consciousness is not natural. But we don't know enough to make that assumption, and all the evidence so far indicates the contrary.
Rosborne979,
Surely you must agree that consciousness is of a higher order than non-consciousness. Therefore, by assuming that your highest reality, nature, does not possess this attribute, you place yourself above nature. You just claimed that consciousness is natural. In what sense is your consciousness natural if consciousness is not an attribute that you ascribe to nature? Sounds like a paradox to me.
Derevon wrote:In what sense is your consciousness natural if consciousness is not an attribute that you ascribe to nature?
Consciousness *is* an attribute of nature because we are natural, and we are conscious. We are not above it, we are it.
You are stuck on the assumption that there is some
larger aspect of consciousness out there other than what nature produces, but there isn't. You are creating a paradox where none exist by making that assumption.
Rosborne979,
Please explain to me your definition of "nature".
ammar wrote:According to Islam, God knows everything that u have done an will do but u choose what u want to do. in other words, ur doings are foreknown to God not preordained.
Regarding evil, this life now is not the perfect life for living rather it is the perfect for testing. God told us in the Quran that this life is almost nothing compared with paradise in the second life which is the perfect for living.
ammar that is quite a 'sensible' description; but oh so 'dangerous' and 'wastefull, if it is all wrong!
'belief' leads us down roads from which we cannot return.
Derevon wrote:Rosborne979,
Please explain to me your definition of "nature".
Just the standard definition: The material world and its phenomena.
Consciousness is a phenomena of nature.
Rosborne979,
I disagree. You said there was evidence indicating that consciousness would be a "natural phenomenon". What are you referring to?
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