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Is this a Christian Cult?

 
 
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 12:29 pm
Given the requirements for admission to Patrick Henry College, would it be considered a Cult?

What is it that makes something a cult, and not just a religion, or an institution?
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fishin
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 12:35 pm
Based on that criteria alone? No. I'd think not.

They may all be nutty as can be but (provided there aren't other issues undisclosed here) they are up front about their standards and beliefs.

I think a part of the criteria for "cult" status is hidden agendas. People are brought in being told one thing and then are trapped there (physically or mentally) and the reality of the group is different from what they publicly reveal.
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 12:37 pm
Re: Is this a Christian Cult?
rosborne979 wrote:
What is it that makes something a cult, and not just a religion, or an institution?


Good question!

By some dictionary definitions all religious groups are cults.

I think that when most people use teh word they use the definition below (which is, of course, very subjective):

Quote:
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
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rosborne979
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 12:45 pm
fishin' wrote:
Based on that criteria alone? No. I'd think not.


That criteria alone only makes them a religion (or maybe a cult, depending on your definition). But the example given is part of an organization which intends to indocrinate, and to prepare its students to go forth and affect the world around them, however they choose. Although, I would expect that they would choose to do what they are taught is right.

fishin' wrote:
I think a part of the criteria for "cult" status is hidden agendas.


Well, I guess it isn't hidden, but here's another agenda... http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=513495&host=3&dir=70
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fishin
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 12:57 pm
I don't see another agenda there. Is it supposed to be that this school thinks they are training people to be future leaders of a particular view? By that standard every university in the country falls into the same category.

I think the closing paragraph is telling:

"But, to its critics, what is perhaps most striking about this small, influential college with its self-confidence and focus, and its links with America's neoconservative political elite, is its utter transparency. Patrick Henry College is an institution devoted to spreading its word, spreading its view of the world, and helping to place its students in positions of authority and influence. And it does so in plain view."

I could easily rewrite that to replace "neo-conservative" with "liberal" mnd "Patrick Henry College" with "Harvard University" and no one would blink at the statement. Is Harvard a cult?
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rosborne979
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 01:13 pm
fishin' wrote:
Is Harvard a cult?


I guess it depends on its extremism.

That's why I started the discussion. Smile
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Setanta
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 01:18 pm
I don't think the PHC things represents a cult, in the sense in which the term is used these days.

That being said, i don't consider that the Harvard analogy which Fishin' advanced works. Harvard does not promote a religion. I futher cannot at all accept the contention on Fishin's part that he could simply substitute "liberal" and "Harvard Univesity" and that: ". . . no one would blink at the statement." I suggest that one hell of a howl would be raised, were HU every to do such a thing.
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Acquiunk
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 01:27 pm
fishin' wrote:
Is Harvard a cult?


fishin you live in Boston, you tell me.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 05:21 pm
truth
I suspect that definitions of "cult" would try to be ideal types. Real organizations may meet some but not all of the criteria of such definitions. I don't think think of Harvard or Yale as cults, but what about the latter's Skull and Bones fraternity?
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Setanta
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 06:40 pm
I would describes such "cabals" as cells of the Old Boy net . . .
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mesquite
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 06:42 pm
There is way too much mention of government and the form government should take for my comfort. Most definitely this is hard core fundy form of Christianity.
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fishin
 
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Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 06:49 pm
Setanta wrote:
I futher cannot at all accept the contention on Fishin's part that he could simply substitute "liberal" and "Harvard Univesity" and that: ". . . no one would blink at the statement." I suggest that one hell of a howl would be raised, were HU every to do such a thing.


Really? No one raises a howl every year at Harvard's graduation ceremony when the graduating class is told to go out into the world and apply the ideas and ideals the school has taught them. The paragraph I quoted is standard graduation pablum. What school tells their graduating students to go out into the world and do nothing with their lives?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2004 11:42 pm
In the first place, that would make the passage read:

"But, to its critics, what is perhaps most striking about this huge, influential college with its self-confidence and focus, and its links with America's liberal political elite, is its utter transparency. Harvard University is an institution devoted to spreading its word, spreading its view of the world, and helping to place its students in positions of authority and influence. And it does so in plain view."

I continue to seriously doubt that anyone at HU would approve such a text. Even if only being dishonest, i doubt they would make an appeal to being card-carrying members of the "liberal politcal elite." My personal experience is that most elitist are reluctant to acknowledge as much.

Moreover, this statement is extremely guileful. I know you too well not to know that you're aware that: ". . . an institution devoted to spreading its word, spreading its view of the world, and helping to place its students in positions of authority and influence. And it does so in plain view."--is a far cry from: "What school tells their graduating students to go out into the world and do nothing with their lives?"

So, then, Fishin', if you're sincere here, i can take it you consider doing nothing with one's life; or actively spreading an institution's word and view, while actively seeking a position of authority and influence--are the only two options open to a university graduate?

Rolling Eyes
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 06:44 am
Setanta wrote:
In the first place, that would make the passage read:

"But, to its critics, what is perhaps most striking about this huge, influential college with its self-confidence and focus, and its links with America's liberal political elite, is its utter transparency. Harvard University is an institution devoted to spreading its word, spreading its view of the world, and helping to place its students in positions of authority and influence. And it does so in plain view."

I continue to seriously doubt that anyone at HU would approve such a text. Even if only being dishonest, i doubt they would make an appeal to being card-carrying members of the "liberal politcal elite." My personal experience is that most elitist are reluctant to acknowledge as much.


Perhaps someone at Harvard wouldn't write using those words. But then those words were written by anyone at Patrick Henry either. They were written by a newspaper columnist critical of PHU. I seriously doubt anyone at PHU would approve of that text as a description of their school either.

Quote:
Moreover, this statement is extremely guileful. I know you too well not to know that you're aware that:


Of course it is. It's written by someone that wrote an entire article that is critical of the school.

Quote:
So, then, Fishin', if you're sincere here, i can take it you consider doing nothing with one's life; or actively spreading an institution's word and view, while actively seeking a position of authority and influence--are the only two options open to a university graduate?

Rolling Eyes


Nope. I certianly see lots of room in between those two postions. When was the last time you heard a commencement speech that encouraged anything but for the graduates to acheive great things in their lives? They may not choose the exact words that the writer of the article chose but the jist of any graduation speech is the same. Telling the graduates that they should go out and seek to be captians of industry, political figures, etc.. is standard graduation fodder. Are those not "postions of authority and influence"?
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 06:52 am
State college: "Go out and do your best, just stay off the pipe, and don't ho' yourself out unless you gettin' paid large."
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 08:11 am
fishin' wrote:
Perhaps someone at Harvard wouldn't write using those words. But then those words were written by anyone at Patrick Henry either. They were written by a newspaper columnist critical of PHU. I seriously doubt anyone at PHU would approve of that text as a description of their school either.


The following is from the web site linked at the beginning of the article:

The Patrick Henry College Board of Trustees wrote:
Adopted by the Board of Trustees September 28, 2002

The Mission of Patrick Henry College is to train Christian men and women who will lead our nation and shape our culture with timeless biblical values and fidelity to the spirit of the American founding. In order to accomplish this mission, the College provides academically excellent higher education with a biblical worldview using classical liberal arts core curriculum and apprenticeship methodology.

The Vision of Patrick Henry College is to aid in the transformation of American society by training Christian students to serve God and mankind with a passion for righteousness, justice and mercy, through careers of public service and cultural influence.

The Distinctives of Patrick Henry College include practical apprenticeship methodology; a deliberate outreach to home schooled students; financial independence; a general education core based on the classical liberal arts; a dedication to mentoring and discipling Christian students; and a community life that promotes virtue, leadership, and strong, life-long commitments to God, family and society.

The Mission of the Department of Government is to promote practical application of biblical principles and the original intent of the founding documents of the American republic, while preparing students for lives of public service, advocacy and citizen leadership.

The Mission of the Department of Classical Liberal Arts is to provide students with a broad background in classical languages, logic, rhetoric, Biblical studies, history, English composition and literature, philosophy, science, and mathematics. They will encounter a multiplicity of ideas animating the world's great leaders and thinkers of the past in order to see how God has worked in and continues to work in His creation.


Additonally,

The PHC Board wrote:
Adopted by the Board of Trustees September 28, 2002

The College is, and shall always remain, a Christian institution dedicated to bringing honor and glory to the Lord Jesus Christ in all of its activities. Each Trustee, officer, faculty member and student of the College, as well as such other employees and agents of the College as may be specified by resolution of the Board of Trustees, shall fully and enthusiastically subscribe to the following Statement of Faith:

There is one God, eternally existent in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, is God come in the flesh.

The Bible in its entirety (all 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) is the inspired word of God, inerrant in its original autographs, and the only infallible and sufficient authority for faith and Christian living.

Man is by nature sinful and is inherently in need of salvation, which is exclusively found by faith alone in Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

Christ's death provides substitutionary atonement for our sins.

Personal salvation comes to mankind by grace through faith.

Jesus Christ literally rose bodily from the dead.

Jesus Christ literally will come to earth again in the Second Advent.

Satan exists as a personal, malevolent being who acts as tempter and accuser, for whom Hell, the place of eternal punishment, was prepared, where all who die outside of Christ shall be confined in conscious torment for eternity.


Now, certainly, i don't say that these folks have no right to what it is they choose to believe, nor that they wish to inculcate it in those who demonstrate their willingness for the process by enrollment. I consider it bordering on the ludicrous to suggest that Harvard University has anything remotely equivalent in terms of a narrowly defined appeal to unfounded statements about the nature of the cosmos, its origin and its likely fate; nor, yet again, stating that it supports a political agenda based upon such a narrow dogma, nor any dogma, which it is their purpose to inculcate into their students with the long-term goal of injecting any such description of values into the polity. I don't deny the right of the Patrick Henry Board to any of these constitutionally expressed freedoms of the Republic--it consider it an absurdity to suggest that this is equivalent to the ordinary position of a Board of an institution of higher learning in this nation. Such institutions are undoubtedly a plurality, but i doubt even a significant fraction of all sound institutions of higher education. I suggest that you are painting these folks in the best possible light to support a shakey thesis, which also entails implications of a sinister character to the aggregate of the staff of Harvard University which i doubt you'd be able to support--and certainly not as easily as one can support a characterization of PHC for it's fundamental christian nature, given the convenience with which PHC provides its "mission statement."

Fishin' wrote:
Of course it is. It's written by someone that wrote an entire article that is critical of the school.


My remark about a guileful statement was directed at you. My position on a likely significant distinction to be made between the stated goals of these respective institutions of higher education is based upon the site originally linked and the publised mission statement there. Now, i certainly did not look for an equivalent statement about Harvard--but then, i'm not the one advancing the proposition that an equivalence in tone and expressed belief, as well as expressed intent to interject any set of values into the polity can be found at Harvard. I suggest that this is a case of you making an extraordinary claim, and i see no reason to accept your statement absent the proof which is ordinary considered to be an onus of someone advancing such a claim.

The article subsequently quoted does not contradict, nor is it contradicted by the mission statement and statement of beliefs provided by PHC, nor are the statements of those quoted in the article contradictory to those statements. Despite what you may allege about bias or hostility on the part of author, The Independent is a sufficiently reputable journal to suggest reasonably that they have an ordinary care for the accuracy of what they publish, as will be the case with any such journal jealous of the high reputation upon which a good deal of their circulation is based. Basic economic sense says that such a paper, wishing to appeal to a wide and comfortably literate audience, and reliant upon advertising revenues for its bottom line--will not publish that which it cannot defend in court. You will likely know this better than i, or have the resources to deny it, if you think appropriate--but all i've ever read tells me that libel is much more easily prosecuted in the United Kingdom than here.

Like Shakespeare's Lady of Denmark, you protest too much.

Quote:
Nope. I certianly see lots of room in between those two postions. When was the last time you heard a commencement speech that encouraged anything but for the graduates to acheive great things in their lives? They may not choose the exact words that the writer of the article chose but the jist of any graduation speech is the same. Telling the graduates that they should go out and seek to be captians of industry, political figures, etc.. is standard graduation fodder. Are those not "postions of authority and influence"?


I'm quite well aware of sort of "cookie cutter" exhortations which constitute standard commencement addresses. That in no way lessens the absurdity of suggesting an equivalence in the expressed goals for their graduates of these two respective institutions. As far as i am concerned, you haven't made a case for a reasonable comparison.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2004 07:37 pm
Well said setanta.

The link to the PHC website at the beginning of this thread is well worth reading in it's entirety. This is not just a Christian school. This is a school that limits itself to the very narrowest of views. Besides the requirement to believe in the bible as inerrant and infallible as a condition of enrollment, the faculty is even more restricted.
PHC wrote:
Creation. Any biology, Bible or other courses at PHC dealing with creation will teach creation from the understanding of Scripture that God's creative work, as described in Genesis 1:1-31, was completed in six twenty-four hour days. All faculty for such courses will be chosen on the basis of their personal adherence to this view

It is not their narrow minded belief that bothers me, it is the emphasis on government. The word "government" shows up 35 times on that intro page with this being the first instance.
PHC wrote:
God has ordained three primary social institutions to order human affairs: the family, the church, and civil government. Each of these institutions honors God when it operates under the principles of His word within its God-given scope of authority:

The fact so many alumni of PHC have penetrated the Bush administration and the ranks of congressional interns is alarming. Seven out of 100 interns from any one school would be astounding. For seven to be from PHC to me is incredulous.
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