11
   

Which is more likely, theism or atheism?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 07:02 am
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy...you have got to stop making stuff up.

You have NEVER heard me say "I believe" anything. NEVER! Nor have you ever seen me write such a thing.

So stop. You are making a fool of yourself.

There is no contradiction in what I have been discussing here...and if there were...you would post a link to it.

You cannot...because I have not contradicted myself.


You are denying saying you do not believe unicorns exist on Earth?


No...I do not deny it...and I did not deny it when you asked me that same thing earlier. And I will even repeat it: I do not believe that unicorns exist on Earth.

I also do not believe that there are no unicorns on Earth. As I told you, I do not do "believing."

If you are asking me if I know there are no unicorns on Earth...I would tell you that I do not know...but that my guess would be that there are not.

Quote:
Lets just be clear on that. Do you deny that? I will post a link if you say you deny it lol. It won't be hard for me to find since you've said it numerous times.


Why would I have to deny that? I have said many times that I have said, "I do not believe unicorns exist on Earth."

Why do you continue to suppose that saying "I do not believe..."...is evidence that I do "believe."

Are you sane?

Quote:
Don't lie, old man. You're either a pathological liar or your memory is starting to fade. They say memory is the 1st or 2nd thing to go.


Oh, I've upset you. I am so sorry for that, Jimmy. Gosh...I hope you do not drop to the floor and kick holes in mommy's carpet.

I have no need to lie with you, Jimmy. I show your arguments to be defective easily using the truth.
MichaelPascu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 07:19 am
@JimmyJ,
Atheism obviously.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 08:34 am
Quote:
Romeo said: Perhaps there's NO evidence atheists would accept, not even if God himself paid them a visit. They'd think he was just a hallucination or trick of the light..
Fresco said: We're waiting..Smile

Well, Jesus said- "God is spirit" (John 4:24) so he's invisible and we wouldn't be able to see him, so he did the next best thing and sent a string of prophets and messengers, culminating in Jesus to give us his message.
Jesus said "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak" (John 12:49), so in that sense God has already been down here and people heard him speaking through them..Smile
And of course, regarding the end of the world Jesus said "I'll be back" (Mark 13:26)


http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/church-2_zpsc3777e35.jpg~original
0 Replies
 
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 10:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 10:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Since you have not shown the slightest inclination to investigate the philosophical status of the words "I" or "know", but for ten years have continued with assuming their lay usage, your tedious mission statement, as always, is unworthy of a response.



JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 10:42 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
You have NEVER heard me say "I believe" anything.



Quote:
I do not believe that unicorns exist on Earth.



You lose again.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 10:44 am
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.


If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 10:45 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Since you have not shown the slightest inclination to investigate the philosophical status of the words "I" or "know", but for ten years have continued with assuming their lay usage, your tedious mission statement is, as always, unworthy of a response.


Are you actually responding to tell me that my posts are not worthy of a response???
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 10:47 am
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
You have NEVER heard me say "I believe" anything.



Quote:
I do not believe that unicorns exist on Earth.



You lose again.




Oh, so in your mind my saying "I do not believe..." is the same as saying "I do believe..."

And to think...you were the one accusing me of equating the two!!!
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:13 am
@JimmyJ,
I will start by saying why it is extremely improbable that the Christian god exists.

I once saw a great debate at Purdue university on this topic and the debater who described which is more likely worded it almost perfectly. If anyone can find this video or knows where it is please post it as it's a much better explanation than I'm about to provide. I'm not a philosopher or an English major, but I'll do my best. He used an analogy of a cake. It's your birthday and you're expecting a cake. So you come home expecting to see the ingredients, the dirty dishes, and the smell of the cake but you find that none of these things are there. You can then healthily infer that no cake was made (at least in that house).

First we have to examine what a world WITH a loving (the christian god is loving) god would look like. In almost every aspect in which we look, we find that the world comes up short of our expectations. We will assume that this god cares about his creations. We will assume that the teachings in the Bible are true. You can start by looking at the pointless suffering in the world. Some christians will say that the devil is responsible, but are you saying that god allows the devil to run rampant, torturing and killing his creations at a whim? This is a christian cop-out. Some will say only the people who deserve the pain are getting it. I volunteer at a hospice for which terminally ill children stay. Are you telling me that they deserve to suffer? So we find that pointless suffering of his creations shows that he either does not exist or does not care about the fate of us.

The existence of "reasonable" atheism is my next reason. It is possible for an atheist to be logical and reasonable and to logically and reasonably debate whether god exists or not. Would it be difficult for god to provide a small amount of evidence that would substantiate his existence and allow for all reasonable people to believe in him?

The success of science without taking god into account. Throughout history you notice that religion has shrunk further and further as science and knowledge has grown. For example, we used to think rain and fire were both divine miracles. Now we know the science behind both of these. We used to think the Earth was no more than 6,000 years old (though I admit some people legitimately still believe this). Now science tells us it is not. While science can never prove that god does not exist, it has been extremely successful without taking god into account at all.

I have indeed examined the concept of "intelligent design" and "irreducible complexity". In reading a lot of what the "Discovery Institute" has published and attempted to get published into scientific journals, I've found one common theme: they all lack or are willing to ignore the abundance of flaws in human evolution. Though we have things on our body that are remarkable, it's not logical to use that as evidence for design. In fact, when we observe what we know about evolution, it's not hard to visualize how these things could have come into being naturally with the amount of time they've had. When you imagine how long life on Earth was microscopic it allows you to put things into perspective. Organisms were not allowed by the atmosphere to get much larger than a few micrometers until the oxidation event ~2.4 billion years ago. Oxygen did two things: it allowed greater diversification/size and it formed a protective shield by reacting with UV rays from the sun (We call O3, the ozone layer). Shortly after this there was an explosion of different forms and themes. More species went extinct throughout history than remained, which fits the idea of "natural selection" better than it does the idea of "theism". Humans have been slowly evolving for billions of years. In that time, isn't it likely that most of our remarkable features were able to become as complex as they are now? We can also look at the flaws in our own evolution to find that evolution is very inefficient as a process. For example, the blindspot in the eye, the trachea and esophagus positioning in our throats cause us to choke easily (ie: "it went down the wrong pipe"), the appendix, etc.

Discrepancies in the Bible and Qur'an is more specific to the Abrahamic god. Lets face it, and even most christians will have to admit this, most of the stories in the Bible are too fantastic to have any scientific possibility whatsoever. Isn't is wondrous that they only occurred at that time and not any more for us to see? Isn't it wondrous that science has found out so much and the Bible's validity/stories have become so less true over the last hundred years?

Common beliefs and themes in both the Qur'an and Bible suggest that all non-believers will go to hell to suffer eternally. I bring us full circle now back to my original post in which god "cares" about his creations. I understand the need for punishment. However, given that god has provided no evidence of his existence, does he really believe eternally damnation for nonbelievers, gays, and believers of other deities is a just punishment? Many christians will say this isn't true, and to them I say I will post the quotes from the Bible itself to verify if need be. I'm not willing to accept that a god whom loves/cares about his creations would put forth such a sentence.

Anyways, that's most of what I have to say on the subject.
0 Replies
 
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.



likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Oh, so in your mind my saying "I do not believe..." is the same as saying "I do believe..."

And to think...you were the one accusing me of equating the two!!!


I'm operating on your logic here which you've inferred throughout the entire discussion.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:32 am
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
Oh, so in your mind my saying "I do not believe..." is the same as saying "I do believe..."

And to think...you were the one accusing me of equating the two!!!


I'm operating on your logic here which you've inferred throughout the entire discussion.


I have never inferred any such thing. But it is entertaining to watch you try to sell that idea.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:33 am
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.



likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.

If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:38 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:47 am
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.


If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:50 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 11:59 am
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.


If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 12:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you are going to say that one is more likely than the other...you have to quantify the both, Jimmy...no matter what that particular definition says.

But you can't...and your assertion that one is more likely than the other is an unfounded, unsubstantiated assertion that you know holds no water...so continue to post repeats as often as you like...and I will continue to address them.


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures or quantification in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

If you keep avoiding my statement, I'll keep reposting it.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Dec, 2013 12:32 pm
The futility the question about "the likelihood of God" (irrespective of its ambiguity) can be demonstrated by those pseudo statistical comments alone. The point is that "more than" does NOT require quantification of BOTH, because one is the negation of the other. What is implied here is that the "evidence " constitutes ordinal data, and the onus is on the believers to establish their data. But since there is no agreement about the nature of such data, the issue fails to satisfy even the lowest form of quantification, i.e. the nominal level and by definition therefore fails ordinal analysis.
0 Replies
 
 

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