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Which is more likely, theism or atheism?

 
 
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Dec, 2013 07:31 pm
@ossobuco,
You haven't been keeping up with our arguments in other threads (Frank and I). He's on numerous occasion pointed out my spelling/grammatical errors as retorts. I was poking fun at him for incorrectly wording a phrase.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Dec, 2013 09:00 pm
@JimmyJ,
Because, from what I understand, thermodynamics teaches that in any closed system the amount of heat in that system will eventually reach equilibrium. So if at any given moment there must have been an infinite amount of time before that moment, and before that moment and so on, the only logical conclusion would be that if the universe existed for an infinite amount of time, then all areas in the universe would be equally warm. Obviously, we can tell this is not true, because we can observe differences in temperature.
It also teaches that no new energy can be created, it is only recycled into a less usable form of energy. Using the same infinite principle, all energy would have become benign an infinite amount of time ago.
A third understanding is that of course the universe is expanding and particles are drifting further and further apart. if this has been ongoing for an infinite amount of time, then our particles would be space dust, drifting ever after.

By my understanding, which could indeed be incorrect, to claim the universe is infinite, is to ignore basic scientific principles, which by your arguments for atheism I know is important to you.

On the second note, If something1 that operates outside of this universe caused nothing to become something2, then something1 would not be bound by the laws that bind the universe, and more specifically time. Something that is not bound by time would indeed be infinite, and not require a beginning.

You'll have to excuse me if I have misused science in any part of this statement.

Smiley,
not a scientist
ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Dec, 2013 09:37 pm
@JimmyJ,
Frank and I have talked for many years, at the least eleven, oh, wait, maybe a hundred.

He is usually wrong.
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:45 pm
@Smileyrius,
How do you know that thermodynamics applies? Clearly the normal laws of physics do not govern black holes, and if theoretical physics is to be believed, the universe was essentially a singularity similar to a black hole.

In any case, how the universe came into existence is only theoretical since nobody was there to prove it. I simply feel it's a bit silly to dismiss the question as "god did it" rather than investigate what we DO know.

For the universe to come into existence, a law somewhere MUST have been broken. But just because a law has been broken does not mean that a deity was involved.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 03:53 am
@JimmyJ,
The implication of your (ambiguous question) is that theism can be ascribed a value like "correct" or "incorrect". That is simplistic thinking (aka Apisa thinking Wink ). Believers have all the "evidence" they need for what is component of their modus vivendi. Atheists merely reject that "evidence" and the modus it supports. Fellow atheists agree that the diversity of the details accepted by some believers and not others, points to arbitrariness of all of it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 07:29 am
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
You caught Jimmy out on this correctly, Finn.


My my, you are old. The correct phrase is "you called Jimmy out".

You're a funny guy, Frank.


Yes, I am old, Jimmy. And most of my friends and fellow workers consider me a wit and fun to be with.

Glad we both think the other is funny, Jimmy. Makes our interaction so much more fun.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 07:30 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

Frank and I have talked for many years, at the least eleven, oh, wait, maybe a hundred.

He is usually wrong.


Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 07:33 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

The implication of your (ambiguous question) is that theism can be ascribed a value like "correct" or "incorrect". That is simplistic thinking (aka Apisa thinking Wink ). Believers have all the "evidence" they need for what is component of their modus vivendi. Atheists merely reject that "evidence" and the modus it supports. Fellow atheists agree that the diversity of the details accepted by some believers and not others, points to arbitrariness of all of it.


Raise ya one, Fresco. Wink Wink

You ought really to have inserted the word "some" or "most" before the word "Atheists" in your fourth sentence. It would have made more sense.
0 Replies
 
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 11:59 am
@fresco,
We're talking about which is more LIKELY to be correct. Not which is absolutely correct.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 12:17 pm
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

We're talking about which is more LIKELY to be correct. Not which is absolutely correct.


Why don't you publish your figures for how likely it is for there to be a GOD or gods...and for how likely it is for there to be no gods...

...and let us compare them?

Why don't you publish those figures, Jimmy?

Why?
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 12:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
We don't have any figures (as they're impossible to have). All we have is likelihoods.

I have an idea, though. Lets get FRANK'S opinion on the matter.

Prepare yourselves, though. It will probably be the same as it is for everything else.
"God exists and he does not exist, because I don't do believing. Nothing can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore nothing exists. I win"
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 12:37 pm
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

We don't have any figures (as they're impossible to have). All we have is likelihoods.


Well...the only way to get "likelihoods"...is to have figures. You do understand that, don't you? If you do not know how likely it is that there are gods...and you do not know how likely it is that there are no gods...how in the hell can you say that one is more likely than the other?

Jeez!

Quote:
I have an idea, though. Lets get FRANK'S opinion on the matter.


My opinion is that we cannot determine which is more likely. Theists will almost always suggest it is more likely that there is a GOD...and atheists will almost always suggest it is more likely that there are no gods.


I will stick with...we cannot determine which is more likely.

Quote:
Prepare yourselves, though. It will probably be the same as it is for everything else.
"God exists and he does not exist, because I don't do believing. Nothing can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore nothing exists. I win"


Nope, I gave my opinion above.
JimmyJ
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 01:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Well...the only way to get "likelihoods"...is to have figures. You do understand that, don't you? If you do not know how likely it is that there are gods...and you do not know how likely it is that there are no gods...how in the hell can you say that one is more likely than the other?

Jeez!


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.

Quote:
My opinion is that we cannot determine which is more likely. Theists will almost always suggest it is more likely that there is a GOD...and atheists will almost always suggest it is more likely that there are no gods.


I will stick with...we cannot determine which is more likely.


Sounds like you're trying to avoid healthy debate. Shame on you, Frank.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 01:14 pm
@JimmyJ,
JimmyJ wrote:

Quote:
Well...the only way to get "likelihoods"...is to have figures. You do understand that, don't you? If you do not know how likely it is that there are gods...and you do not know how likely it is that there are no gods...how in the hell can you say that one is more likely than the other?

Jeez!


likelihood: the state or fact of something's being likely

^hm... Don't see anything about figures in there.
Nice try, Frank. You have failed once again. Stick to golf and poker.


"Which is more likely" demands numbers. One cannot be more or less likely than the other without a number for both.

Stick with the shallow end, Jimmy.

Quote:
Quote:
My opinion is that we cannot determine which is more likely. Theists will almost always suggest it is more likely that there is a GOD...and atheists will almost always suggest it is more likely that there are no gods.


I will stick with...we cannot determine which is more likely.


Sounds like you're trying to avoid healthy debate. Shame on you, Frank.




You gotta be kidding.

Me?

Trying to avoid healthy debate???

C'mon.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 01:27 pm
Quote:
Topic title: Which is more likely, theism or atheism?

It's stalemated 50-50!
Atheists say "There's no evidence of a god"
Theists say "Life and the universe is ample evidence of a creator"..Smile
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 01:29 pm
@JimmyJ,
The term "correctness" does not apply either absolutely or statistically because there is no agreement as to what constitutes "evidence".
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 01:33 pm
Perhaps there's NO evidence atheists would accept, not even if God himself paid them a visit. They'd think he was just a hallucination or trick of the light..Smile
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 01:35 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
Topic title: Which is more likely, theism or atheism?

It's stalemated 50-50!
Atheists say "There's no evidence of a god"


Actually, most atheistic arguments are variations on two main themes:

1) Theists cannot produce evidence of a GOD...and there is no evidence that gods exist.

2) There is no need for a god to explain existence.

They are correct on both counts...

...BUT, neither is evidence that there are no gods.

For weak atheists, this line of reasoning leads to: "I do not 'believe' gods exist."

Some atheists, the strong atheists make the mistake of suggesting, "Therefore gods do not exist"...or..."Therefore I believe no gods exist."

Weak atheists make a reasonable, logical point.

Strong atheists are just promoting their guesses to assertions or "beliefs" that there are no gods for no good reason...just as theists promote their guesses to assertions or "beliefs" that a GOD exists for no good reason.



fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 01:42 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
...we're waiting ! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Dec, 2013 01:43 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

The term "correctness" does not apply either absolutely or statistically because there is no agreement as to what constitutes "evidence".


Fresco...Jimmy's argument is somthing akin to this:

Jimmy: Blanksburg's police force has more policemen and police cars than Evanfield's police force.

Frank: How many policemen and how many police cars does Blanksburg have?

Jimmy: I don't know...I have no idea.

Frank: Well...how many policemen and how many police cars does Evanfield have.

Jimmy: I don't know that either.

Frank: Ummm...have you seen any good movies lately, Jimmy?

 

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