the canadian seal cull

The only times I've ever seen my Dad cry: At his father's funeral ; when he lost his best friend ; when we had to put down our dogs.

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cjhsa wrote:

You took a stray cat and paid a vet for euthanasia when a .22 round costs about a penny?

The worms are safe with you...

Of course she did! That was the kindest & most civilized thing to do. And really, could you imagine Letty having a gun handy, just in case? Rolling Eyes

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Scrat wrote:

msolga wrote:
I have had to do the same thing, a number of times, with cats that were very ill or in a great deal of pain. What you've described shouldn't happen at all. It sounds like incompetence to me. Change your vet, rather than allow another poor creature go through the same awful experience.

When it came time for the brother of the aforementioned cat, I took him to the same place, but was assisted by a different vet. She did things a bit differently, but in the end, I think it was mostly a matter of what each cat brought to the event. The first ("Barista") went in the doors frightened and fighting, and went out that way. Her brother ("Kramer") was calm and trusting and so had a different experience.

It's a very sad thing to do, I agree. But a good vet will take the necessary time to put the animal at their ease before giving them the injection. So much better for the animal & such a comfort to the owner. <sigh>

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Scrat wrote:

Vivien keeps arguing that she believes in "humane treatment" of animals. Do you see anyone arguing the opposite? No. So why do we keep reading this plaint from her? My guess is the she's not willing to actually discuss the real issues here which I and others have raised.

Scrat, I agree totally with what Vivian has said here. These are views I hold, too. I think she has expressed her views very well here. It has a lot to do with respect for all living creatures & an abhorrence to killing animals as "sport", or their exploitation for commercial gain. How could the described method of killing the seals be considered humane? You are never going to agree with her (or me) on what constitutes "cruelty". We are coming from very different places.

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msolga - Actually, I was writing of hunting deer, that discussion having spun off from the seal cull discussion. In all candor, I am less convinced (or more conflicted) by the notion that we are justified in killing animals to prevent them from competing for resources with us. That case is not as straightforward to me as is the case of hunting deer to prevent overpopulation from harming THE DEER.

If you and I "come from a different place" I suspect it is because I take the deep regret that any living thing come to harm or die (which I believe we share) and filter it through my intellect, where I try as best I can to weigh pros and cons and recognize that there is no perfect solution. As with the pets I mentioned earlier, I can prevent the death of no living thing; that is beyond my power as a human being. In the abstract we can certainly agree that we need some standards as to what is patently cruel and what methods of killing are acceptable given costs and benefits.

I see the seal cull controversy as evidence that people disagree on what this standard should be. You and others see it as evidence that people who disagree with you are somehow defective, evil, less evolved; that we "come from a different place". It's easy to think so, but useless to the discussion and frankly shows me that you don't want to consider the real world issues that have to be considered here. You seem to simply want people to behave the way you think they should, regardless of costs. What can I say but "good luck with that".

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msolga wrote:

cjhsa wrote:
You took a stray cat and paid a vet for euthanasia when a .22 round costs about a penny?

The worms are safe with you...

Of course she did! That was the kindest & most civilized thing to do. And really, could you imagine Letty having a gun handy, just in case?

Well, Letty's in Florida. That speaks volumes. If she's unarmed she's prolly the only person in the entire state that isn't. Most pro-gun state in the lower 48. You a vet with no record? Here's your CCP, no questions asked.

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msolga wrote:

cjhsa wrote:
You took a stray cat and paid a vet for euthanasia when a .22 round costs about a penny?

The worms are safe with you...

Of course she did! That was the kindest & most civilized thing to do. And really, could you imagine Letty having a gun handy, just in case?

I can't see that it is either more kind or more civilized. In fact, if you are putting the kindness of the act at issue, you have to consider the likely emotional and pain-related impact of your actions on the cat, since the result in either case is that the cat is dead. So I ask you, in which of the two scenarios that follow is the cat more likely to be upset and experience pain?

1) You take the cat to the vet, a place either unknown to him or to which he most likely attaches memories of pain and fear. The vet holds the cat down and sticks a needle into him, causing some pain. The cat then experiences a slow loss of control and consciousness, over which he has no control, a feeling alien to him. The cat loses consciousness, and dies.

2) You find the cat sleeping in a comfortable spot in your yard. You quietly point the barrel of your gun at the back of his head and pull the trigger. The cat is dead before he hears the sound.

Now, msolga, you may well differ with me on what is "kind" and what is "civilized", but my point is that you don't get to dictate to others what these words mean, nor do you get to pretend that everyone agrees with you as to what is "kind" and what is "civilized". A cat doesn't recognize a qualitative difference in having his life ended by a vet or by a loving owner.

I believe cruelty lies in intending to cause suffering or in failing to act reasonably to minimize suffering, not in the tools or methods one chooses to use to end life.

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Scrat

I will do some thinking about you last 2 posts & will come back to this discussion.

In regard to Letty & the cat: Guns are not commonly used or owned by most people where I live. It is quite a foreign concept to own a gun for "protection" for most people. We are simply not comfortable/familiar with using them. I doubt that I could kill a sick cat in this way for this very reason. Having found a good, compassionate vet who ensures the animal (& owner) is at ease before putting an animal down, when absolutely necessary) this is the best I can do in these sad situations. I suspect Letty's instincts are similar.

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msolga wrote:

I will do some thinking about you last 2 posts & will come back to this discussion.

In regard to Letty & the cat: Guns are not commonly used or owned by most people where I live. It is quite a foreign concept to own a gun for "protection" for most people. We are simply not comfortable/familiar with using them. I doubt that I could kill a sick cat in this way for this very reason. Having found a good, compassionate vet who ensures the animal (& owner) is at ease before putting an animal down, when absolutely necessary) this is the best I can do in these sad situations. I suspect Letty's instincts are similar.

Of course there's nothing unreasonable about not considering using a gun for many people. My only point was that I don't agree with the notion (which had been forwarded) that using a gun was by definition cruel.

Regards,
Scrat

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the canadian seal cull

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