the canadian seal cull

cjhsa wrote:

Who said anything about killing for fun???

Hunting done properly is a very civilized sport, very exciting, very rewarding. It's also very difficult to be good at.

sport??????? killing? Shocked

i wasn't suggesting that killing the seals was for fun incidentally, that is for sheer greed - £30 per pelt

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cjhsa wrote:

Do you enjoy going to the store?

I realize you're in London and going to the store is quite a bit different than it is here in the U.S.

Unrefridgerated poultry scares the hell out of me (something I saw on one of Jamie Oliver's shows). Ick.

no, I don't live in London. I do now live in a small city and yes, shopping is easy. There are very few remote places (and i lived a great deal of my life in remote places) where there are no shops for food - nomadic tribes need to hunt for food but hunting in America and Europe is for fun - ok you may eat what you kill.

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Come over and visit the states sometime Viv. Hunting and fishing are HUGE sports here, one of our largest if not the largest cottage industries in the U.S.

Deer season is so sacred in some parts that opening day is considered "Christmas with guns". Many young hunters take time off from school to go on the hunt.

Or you can just visit NYC and go shopping. Buy a nice fur for me.

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cjhsa wrote:

I don't think fois gras production is all that cruel. A little unnatural, but not necessarily cruel.

Someone here said that Canada has more guns per capita than the U.S. If so, why not use them? Is this the result of being afraid to use a gun? Go out and club things to death?

you think that inserting a funnel into a goose's throat and pouring vast amounts of grain down forcibly, far far more than it would naturally choose to eat, to grossly enlarge their liver isn't cruel - perhaps you'd like to try it?

As previously said - guns aren't used so that the pelts remain undamaged - money is the most important consideration here

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Do I have fun hunting and fishing? Absolutely. Do I consume what I hunt and fish for? Absolutely.

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Vivien wrote:

As previously said - guns aren't used so that the pelts remain undamaged - money is the most important consideration here

They must be really lousy shots.

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Scrat wrote:

not at all would be my preferred option

As I suspected. Are you likewise opposed to the harvesting of meat for food? Or is it only seals about which you feel so deeply?

I have to disagree with your suggestion that there is a moral equivalence between harming and animal and harming a human being.

but I don't share your apparent assumption that a simple method which employs a crude tool and is inherently messy is automatically less humane than one that is more costly but tidier to watch. Dead is dead.

#quote]

First point: Harvesting of meat for food should also be done humanely - this is my point

Second point: Children who torture animals frequently grow into violent adults. This unecessary cruelty is a very unpleasant side of humanity the majority of the world understands this. A callous disregard for suffering when humane alternatives are available is not acceptable.

third point: the 'mess' is a side effect and has nothing to do with my objection - which is the pain caused and utter callousness of men who can skin a seal that is still alive. the 'crude tool' does not do the job instantly - repeated blows are required.

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cjhsa wrote:

Come over and visit the states sometime Viv. Hunting and fishing are HUGE sports here, one of our largest if not the largest cottage industries in the U.S.

Deer season is so sacred in some parts that opening day is considered "Christmas with guns". Many young hunters take time off from school to go on the hunt.

Or you can just visit NYC and go shopping. Buy a nice fur for me.

thanks for the invitation but no thanks.

I wouldn't be seen dead in fur by the way - i prefer it on its original owner.

our government keep promising to ban hunting Very Happy

I just hope they finally do it.

I had to take 2 beloved cats to be 'put to sleep' over the years Scrat and they both just quietly stopped breathing - no struggle, no pain, just drowsy then gone.

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Oh gawd yes, government, please save me from myself. Unreal.

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Vivien, in my home state of Michigan, there are over 1.5 MILLION deer. Every time a harsh winter comes along, hundreds of thousands of them die. Not to mention the dangerous encounters with autos and airplanes. Nothing worse than a deer on a runway (lots and lots of small airports here too).

We as humans dominate almost every microclimate of the planet, and thus, we are stewards of the wildlife, whether we want to be or not. I support hunting because hunters and anglers are the original conservationists. Managing the herds is only one aspect of that stewardship.

I'm very sorry if overpopulation and overhunting has ruined it for everyone in the old country, which seems to be the case.

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cjhsa wrote:

Vivien, in my home state of Michigan, there are over 1.5 MILLION deer. Every time a harsh winter comes along, hundreds of thousands of them die. Not to mention the dangerous encounters with autos and airplanes. Nothing worse than a deer on a runway (lots and lots of small airports here too).

We as humans dominate almost every microclimate of the planet, and thus, we are stewards of the wildlife, whether we want to be or not. I support hunting because hunters and anglers are the original conservationists. Managing the herds is only one aspect of that stewardship.

I'm very sorry if overpopulation and overhunting has ruined it for everyone in the old country, which seems to be the case.

you misunderstand, I believe wilfully. the population of the 'old country' are a little more enlightened and more than half the population is now strongly opposed to hunting. There is hope for civilisation here! nothing whatsoever to do with overpopulation or overhunting.

Conservation by hunters is a con and the 'conservation' is only to ensure the survival of the species so that they can have the fun of killing it. Don't try to kid me they care! Our Phil the Greek and son Charlie are prime examples.

Yes i realise deer on a runway are dangerous - we have airfields and deer here too. Bird strikes are dangerous too for planes - maybe hunt down all the birds?

Sorry but there is something inherently damaged about a person who has to get their kicks from killing and maiming.

Maybe you would enjoy the olden days with bear baiting, cock fighting, dog fighting etc Humanity is supposed to have moved forward since then.

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Vivien - When you tell me what you think, I find it interesting. When you tell me what other people think, I lose interest.

My mother hunts deer. She also cries when she sees the movie, "Bambi". I find this hilarious, though in reality it shows that she is both a sensitive person and a realist who understands that life on this planet involves making decisions based on tradeoffs.

There is no rational argument with the fact that the deer population in New York state would grow beyond healthy limits without some efforts taken to control the population. The "natural" cycle would allow herd populations to explode until habitats were overgrazed, food supplies plummeted, and starvation and disease thinned the herd numbers sufficiently for grazable plants to recover enough to support a new growing population, at which point the cycle begins anew.

Putting aside the notion of whether we "want" deer to die, we are forced to acknowledge that some MUST die--there is no alternative--and consider HOW we want them to live--what quality of life we want those who do not die to have. Left to their own devices, cyclical periods of starvation and disease would be the lot of the herd. With human intervention to thin herds, balance between herd populations and habitat can be achieved so that many deer live far healthier lives in habitat with abundant food supplies, rather than fighting for life in a habitat tasked with supporting too many deer with scarce food resources.

I doubt you speak for people of the "old country", but I can tell you that what you call "more enlightened" I call willfully naive.

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when i say i speak about popular opinion it is fact not merely my opinion - there have been numerous opinion polls over recent years with a steadily rising percentage in favour of a ban. I wouldn't attempt to speak for other people without a factual basis.

I am not naive enough to think that no culling is ever necessary - what i have said clearly enough here is that i believe in humane methods and I object to killing for 'fun' as a dehumanising activity and one that I would like to see banned in a supposedly civilised society.

I shan't comment on your mother! I wouldn't like you to comment on my family Very Happy

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By the way, my parents eat what they kill, but I suppose that doesn't matter. You and other annointed visionaries know what's right and what's wrong and the rest of us will just have to come along and evolve, now won't we? :wink:

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heavens I've never been called that before!

only anointed visionaries care about humane treatment then?

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Vivien wrote:

heavens I've never been called that before!

only anointed visionaries care about humane treatment then?

Only anointed visionaries consider themselves more evolved than others based on differences of opinion. Your characterization of the difference in position as being that you and others care about being humane whereas others do not, rather than this being a difference of opinion as to what constitutes humane treatment, is a good proof of my point.

I see no rational standard for arguing that capturing a deer and giving it a lethal injection--a process virtually guaranteed to be traumatic and intended to end a life--is any more humane than using a bullet or buckshot to achieve the same end.

PETA has set themselves up as big animal lovers, and make a big show of "rescuing" animals from various forms of captivity. What most people don't know is that last year PETA itself KILLED 77% of the animals they "rescued". Do you suppose they think the animals preferred dying at PETA's hands? The problem isn't a lack of caring, it's a lack of rational consideration of the real world situations with which we're dealing.

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Um, bear baiting isn't illegal. At least not in all states. Cock and dog fighting is illegal in all 50 states, but still widely practiced particularly in the latino community.

Conservation by hunters is a con? You need to get your facts straight. Let me point out a few.

It has been more than a century since America's first enviromentalists, hunters and outdoorsmen, established the conservation tradition in our nation. Today every state in the union has a well organized wildlife conservation agency, financed primarily by hunters and anglers, for the protection and management of wildlife.

These fish and game departments are responsible for protecting and aiding all wildlife, not just those few species that may be lawfully hunted.

Through license fees and excise taxes on hunting and fishing equipment, hunters and anglers currently contribute over $3 million each day for the benefit of wildlife.

Here's some of the benefits.

In 1900, the whitetail deer population of North America was estimated at 500,000. Currently, the deer population is estimated at 18,000,000.

50 years ago the pronghorn antelope population was about 12,000. Today there are more than one million.

Today there are 800,000 Rocky Mountain elk, 12 times as many as there were in 1907.

The national population of wild turkeys has increased from 97,000 in 1952 to over four million today.

These are just a few.

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This discussion is more about the difference between Europeans and Americans. Some decades ago, we thought like (a lot of) Americans, and killed so many animals for pleasure, and were so careless about our environment, that we destroyed our nature. First we thought: well there are enough animals, so we can do this. But suddenly, we understood that we had done too much killing, destroyed too much; by than, it was too late, and it took a lot of years and billions of dollars to get only some back what we once had.

I wish you good luck, Americans. I wonder how your nature looks like in thirty years. :wink:

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scrat said:Only anointed visionaries consider themselves more evolved than others based on differences of opinion. Your characterization of the difference in position as being that you and others care about being humane whereas others do not, rather than this being a difference of opinion as to what constitutes humane treatment, is a good proof of my point.

I see no rational standard for arguing that capturing a deer and giving it a lethal injection--a process virtually guaranteed to be traumatic and intended to end a life--is any more humane than using a bullet or buckshot to achieve the same end.

PETA has set themselves up as big animal lovers, and make a big show of "rescuing" animals from various forms of captivity. What most people don't know is that last year PETA itself KILLED 77% of the animals they "rescued". Do you suppose they think the animals preferred dying at PETA's hands? The problem isn't a lack of caring, it's a lack of rational consideration of the real world situations with which we're dealing.

I don't remember suggesting catching a deer to inject it, please don't attribute ideas to me that i have not expressed. A dart gun could be used - no distress, or very little.

no, only annointed visionaries are not the the only ones who care about humane treatment. Or are there a lot of anointed visionaries in America who feel that Vietnam, Iraq and others should be attacked because of their beliefs? (please don't digress in politics as well - it is just an example!) I have to say that any nation banning cruelty is more evolved.

I have no knowledge of PETA but if those facts are true then it is appalling. Animal rights activists have done some pretty silly things here as well but I am not one - so once again, don't make assumptions.

Humane treatment for living things you treat as strange - cruelty and inflicting pain for pleasure is what i find strange.

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Vivien wrote:

they club them because it doesn't damage the pelt - pain and suffering doesn't seem to weight with them.

Why would they be so concerned with the pelts, if they're culling them due to the state of fish stocks? The whole thing reeks.

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the canadian seal cull

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