9
   

How did the Earth evolve???

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 12:26 am
@farmerman,
And I appreciate the sedulous efforts of those who provide these formulae. Microevolution is a remarkable process.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 12:32 am
@neologist,
So you've come half way, I suppose my work is done here.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 01:53 am
@Pearlylustre,
Quote:
My daughter has been studying evolution in biology this year. I can't tell you how disappointed and pissed off I'd be if she posted her assignments on an internet message board like this.


You should be pissed off at her being indoctrinated in the first place. Evolution is a bunch of bullshit.
Pearlylustre
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 02:50 am
@gungasnake,
Happily we live in a place where views such as yours are given no credence at all. She's hoping for a career in medicine and I don't think she'd have much of a future if she thought evidence based science was bullshit.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 06:52 am
@Pearlylustre,
http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html
Pearlylustre
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 07:24 am
@gungasnake,
I could find you many more articles giving evidence for evolution - and no doubt many of them debunking the claims in this article. Newgeology.us obviously has a creationist agenda and any group that bases it's view of how the universe works on the supposed existence of a mythological being has no credibility. Your creation myth has no more basis in reality than the Rainbow Serpent though they're both nice stories. I've read a few of your posts on various subjects and I'm not interested in your opinion - and I know you're not interested in mine, so I'll leave it there.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 07:58 am
@Pearlylustre,

The big lie which is being promulgated by evolutionists is that there is some sort of a dialectic between evolution and religion. There isn't. In order to have a meaningful dialectic between evolution and religion, you would need a religion which operated on an intellectual level similar to that of evolution, and the only two possible candidates would be voodoo and Rastifari.

The dialectic is between evolution and mathematics. Professing belief in evolution at this juncture amounts to the same thing as claiming not to believe in modern mathematics, probability theory, and logic. It's basically ignorant.

Evolution has been so thoroughly discredited at this point that you assume nobody is defending it because they believe in it anymore, and that they are defending it because they do not like the prospects of having to defend or explain some expect of their lifestyles to God, St. Peter, or some other member of that crowd.

To these people I say, you've still got a problem. The problem is that evolution, as a doctrine, is so overwhelmingly STUPID that, faced with a choice of wearing a sweatshirt with a scarlet letter A for Adulteror, F for Fornicator or some such traditional design, or or a big scarlet letter I for IDIOT, you'd actually be better off sticking with one of the traditional choices because, as Clint Eastwood noted in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly:

God Hates IDIOTS Too...

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record (despite the BS claims of talk.origins "crew" and others of their ilk) to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Quote:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now: OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....


You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

  • It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). In other words, the clowns promoting this BS are claiming that the very lack of intermediate fossils supports the theory. Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could SEE them, they wouldn't BE witches...) This kind of logic is less inhibiting than the logic they used to teach in American schools. For instance, I could as easily claim that the fact that I'd never been seen with Tina Turner was all the proof anybody should need that I was sleeping with her. In other words, it might not work terribly well for science, but it's great for fantasies...

    http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxBbTP7lYdWyifvIpoafdaze7s103OTEgN_V3V80q86SZLo5fE1w

  • PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

  • PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

  • PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

  • For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.


The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:



They don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"


They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

Quote:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!


Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.

I ask you: How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?

parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 08:56 am
@gungasnake,
Good ole gunga...
If he posts more than a few sentences, it's pretty much guaranteed he simply plagiarized his post and didn't bother to reference the author.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 08:57 am
@gungasnake,
wow, youre on a roll today gunga. Too ba that EVERYTHING you say is bullshit save one

Quote:

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record


Of which you know absolutely NOTHING. Consder the fossil record as a camera, which only tqke a picture every ten to a hundred thousand years. Thqt would give the appearance of "jumps" . when its merely an artifact of how sediments are laid down nd an animal happens to be there at the time.


I hope you have no kids who want to be anything in the naturl sciences or medicine cause youd be filling their heads with twaddle as a father and that's criminal.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 09:18 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:


The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.


THIS TOO is bullshit of the finest kind. Gould said nothing of the sort (unless you "quote mine from several separate talks". In fact, his long time friend , Dave Raup in his book, EXTINCTION, bad luck or bad genes. The very fact that, of all the organisms THAT ever lived, 99.999% ARE EXTINCT, shows the evidence for the logic core of the Gambler's Ruin expansion. Odds are that extinction is in most generarum' plans for the future, not evolution.
Weve had the available multiple gazillions of species and huge amount of time . And evolution IS NOT a random process.

Evolution is the infrequent luck of the draw of successful environmental adaptation by either morphological, or behavioral changes.


Punctuated equilibrium has few proponent today (it sorta died with Gould because the "plodding" evolutionary changes of his(and Eldredges) field evidence was debunked by several paleontologists who actually FOUND the intermediate species that fell between Goulds PE endmembers. SO, Darwnian "slowpokery" won out again.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 09:33 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Just tell teech that NOBODY fully knows about life and evolution, otherwise scientists would have created an amoeba of their own long before now.
Also ask teech why it's only called The THEORY of Evolution and not the FACT of Evolution?
After all, a theory is just a bunch of guesses and hunches..Smile


Gravity is another theory. Why not show that that's just "a bunch of guesses and hunches" by jumping off a tall building?
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 10:35 am
When I picked up Dawkins "Climbing Mt Improbable" some years ago to get an update on cutting-edge dynamic evolutionary thinking I was so shocked by all the holes, guesses, suppositions, hunches and missing links in it that I snail-mailed Dawks to say how disappointed I was with the book, and he wrote back saying "but of course there are missing links!" as if it was perfectly normal!
But I wasn't buying, and as a result the book seriously dented my respect for evolutionists and the credibility of their theories.
Far from evolution being a smooth unbroken slope up Mt Improbable as they claim, the slope is in fact full of crevasses and chasms that Dawks and his chums are frantically trying to paper over..Wink
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 02:12 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Look mate, you didn't hqve any respect for the theory of evolution to begin with. So why make up a tear filled confession of how you lost any respect with reading Dawkins.
Besides, you don't even know what the word "THEORY" means to science and Im guessing that you will remain demonstrably ignorant of same forever.

0 Replies
 
Pearlylustre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 02:41 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
I don't understand why creationists spend so much time looking for holes in the theory of evolution when they don't address the huge giant gaping hole in their own theory... even one tiny piece of evidence for the existence of your god would be a start. As Dawkins told you, of course there are missing links. It's just common sense that for all the creatures that have ever lived on the planet only a tiny proportion has been preserved as fossils and we don't get to suddenly have access to them all at once. Instead of focussing on the gaps in the evidence why don't you look at what evidence does exist and tell us what plausible alternative theory you can come up with to explain it.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 03:07 pm
@Pearlylustre,
Quote:


I don't understand why creationists spend so much time looking for holes in the theory of evolution when they don't address the huge giant gaping hole in their own theory...
Their minds are wired that way. They see their opinions as "evidence",You can try to explain stuff to them over and over and they just don't hear. Its strange that they accept evolution in developing their cyclic virus shots as "microevolution" but somehow they see a difference twixt that and macro evolution.

Quote:
Instead of focussing on the gaps in the evidence why don't you look at what evidence does exist and tell us what plausible alternative theory you can come up with to explain it.


Now they will soon come up with some Biblical quote as evidence. You watch


neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 03:19 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Now they will soon come up with some Biblical quote as evidence. You watch
Nah.
It's impossible to quantify, or otherwise reach epistemilogical certainty with scripture. All we have is one heck of a lot of anecdotal evidence.

Me? I walk facing traffic.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 03:58 pm
How did the earth evolve??

Slowly. Very slowly.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 04:26 pm
Pearly said- "even one tiny piece of evidence for the existence of your god would be a start"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here ya go mate, surely you don't think anything as beautiful as this could just "happen accidentally" without a designer?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/maid_2_zps2d58f5b4.gif~original


Same for this which atheists say just decided to create itself (snigger)..Smile
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/earth-round2_zps1ffa9cd2.gif~original

WAIT!!! I feel the obligatory quote coming on!!-
"God hangs the earth on nothing" (Job 26:7)
Pearlylustre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 04:44 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Fail.
But I didn't expect any more. I've had a number of conversations like this on and off line and as farmer said ultimately the only 'evidence' for god's existence is that you believe it's true so it must be. I just find it strange that you would try and pull Dawkins' science apart when your own theory has no scientific basis at all.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 05:04 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
All we have is one heck of a lot of anecdotal evidence.

I yearn to learn.

0 Replies
 
 

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