Can we talk about feminism?

@maxdancona,

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3. You are confusing a social interaction between two consenting adults with a non-consensual abuse of privilege. A woman who chooses to flirt with a man is not equivalent to racism. A woman who flaunts her sexuality to a willing audience is a voluntary interaction between two consenting adults. Any woman or man has the right to enjoy flirty behavior with a willing partner.

ya, in an era that is generally hostile to men the sexy woman who will put on a show for men in return for payment is like the hardware store right before the hurricane who has generators to sell....they can sell at triple the rational rate and get no complaints but lots of money to lay in. these are victims?? HAHA!

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hawkeye says:

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in an era that is generally hostile to men

well, it's apparent that the substance you've been smoking is not tobacco, and that "but I didn't inhale" does not fit you. that's just plain silly.

And in line with the OP, I've gotta say that Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines", while it is remarkably raunchy and explicit, and, yeah, pretty sexist, is still probably the most insanely catchy song I've heard in years. So I'm kinda conflicted about it.

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@maxdancona,

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What is wrong with a society where women are free to dress as they choose.

Nothing, I would simply argue (along with many feminists) that the cultural context which surrounds women is overly sexualised. Our choices are not made in a vacuum, culture informs many of them, and it seems to me that our culture has not outgrown sexism.

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You are confusing biological evolution with social darwinism. Saying that something has been wired into my brain by a million years of evolution is a statement about biology. It has nothing to do with social darwinism.

Merely stating that something is the case is passive, non-prescriptive. Merely describing the fact that we are evolved to look for attractiveness (as cues for fertility) and to be sexual creatures is not social darwinist. You described this situation and then said "So why fight it?", as though nature cannot be faulted or improved upon -a social darwinist position.

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A woman who chooses to flirt with a man is not equivalent to racism.

Never said it was.

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A woman who flaunts her sexuality to a willing audience is a voluntary interaction between two consenting adults.

Yes, but again I don't think its right to ignore a cultural context which gives rise to a scenario in which women disproportionately are portrayed/express themselves this way. We can critique this culture while still acknowledging an individuals' right to exist within it and trade on what it grants them.

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@medium-density,

We seem to be disagreeing on a couple of things.

1) I don't agree that men paying to see women in bikini's (a voluntary interaction between two consenting adults) has anything to do with sexism. You need to define what you mean by sexism, but this interaction is clearly not unjust in any way.

2) I don't believe that human sexuality is bad. I don't believe that men being "turned on" by seeing a scantily dressed woman is a bad thing (or constitutes "sexism"), nor do I believe that a woman flirting with a man is a bad thing.

I agree with you about how culture informs how we interact. And, there are things in our culture that I still think are sexist. I am very happy working to change things in our society that are unfair or discriminatory. But this isn't one of them.

Our society values freedom. It sounds like you want to dictate how women choose to express themselves. Of course you have the right to critique the culture you are a part of, but there are obviously lots of men and women alike who don't agree with you.

When it comes to human sexuality (as it evolved over millions of years) I am saying something much stronger then "why fight it?". I am saying "why not enjoy it?" within mutually beneficial voluntary interactions between consenting adults. Your assertion that nature should be "faulted" doesn't make sense. Nature should be celebrated for our sexuality.

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@maxdancona,

as long as the culture is not conditioning men to hurt , holdback or dismiss women then feminism has succeeded. this idea that men sexually wanting women is bad and must be stopped comes from the anti sex feminists, and they wont be happy till all women are lesbians and all remaining men are banished .

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@maxdancona,

Is your reaction to all this, Max, an attempt to cast the new swingin' single in a favorable light, to assuage any guilt feelings?

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Is your reaction to all this, Max, an attempt to cast the new swingin' single in a favorable light, to assuage any guilt feelings?

What guilt feelings, JTT? Why should there be any guilt feelings that need assuaging?

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@maxdancona,

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You need to define what you mean by sexism, but this interaction is clearly not unjust in any way.

This interaction is born of a sexist culture. If a business sought to attract attention by having its male workers carry on in a state of undress that would be a surprise. Since this issue of workplace nakedness concerns women workers it is comprehensively unsurprising. If it's not clear, herein lies the sexism.

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I don't believe that human sexuality is bad. I don't believe that men being "turned on" by seeing a scantily dressed woman is a bad thing (or constitutes "sexism"), nor do I believe that a woman flirting with a man is a bad thing.

Nobody has come close to suggesting human sexuality is bad, nobody has come close to saying flirtation is a bad thing. Men being turned on by the exposed flesh of women isn't in and of itself terrible or sexist, but scantily dressed women can't be an unambiguously good or neutral proposition in all contexts, can it? I would argue this is one of those shady contexts.

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It sounds like you want to dictate how women choose to express themselves.

I don't. I have my views about how women express themselves. Having views is pretty much unavoidable. However I positively invite women to roundly ignore them. I think I've been more critical of sexist culture (which leaves women fewer means of expression) than of women's choices in general.

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Your assertion that nature should be "faulted" doesn't make sense.

Clearly Nature has its good and bad sides. I don't want to say that everything we evolved to do is ripe for social reform, but a lot of it must surely be considered incompatible with modern civilisation. Is that such a nonsensical assertion?

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@medium-density,

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This interaction is born of a sexist culture. If a business sought to attract attention by having its male workers carry on in a state of undress that would be a surprise. Since this issue of workplace nakedness concerns women workers it is comprehensively unsurprising. If it's not clear, herein lies the sexism.

I don't think this has to do with culture. It has to do with our our species.

Not only does every human society value female beauty over male beauty, related species have similar visual cues that make females desirable.

In a free society, customs are going to tend to follow our instincts. Businesses seek to attract attention with scantily clad female workers is because it works. It appeals to a base human biological instinct.

Scantily clad male workers don't titillate in the same way. But this is a property of biology, not of society.

It doesn't make any sense to pass any judgement either way on this fact. It just is.

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@maxdancona,

it is even more interesting than that...I have seen studies that show that women generally think visuals of cock and balls is a outright turn off, but show me a man who does not want to see a womans ****.

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@hawkeye10,

Hawkeye, I feel a strong need to distance myself from you...

Everyone else,

Hawkeye's crass posts and misogynistic jabs, aren't at all in line with my point of view.

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@maxdancona,

truth is truth regardless of your politics....or squeamishness.

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I don't find male genitalia a "turn off" but I think they're a great argument against intelligent design. What intelligent designer would leave those bits so vulnerable?

As a fully heterosexual woman I can say that I find the female body very pleasing to look at. Maybe I studied a bit too much art history or something....

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@boomerang,

I watch almost no porn which is "made for women "(BORING!), but I am confident in predicting that you wont see much of the "male genitalia" (me using the nice words for novelty) in them.

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@maxdancona,

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I don't think this has to do with culture. It has to do with our our species.

Not only does every human society value female beauty over male beauty, related species have similar visual cues that make females desirable.

I suppose it is highly probable that sexism is written into our biology, its prevalence alone would suggest that. In a sense though this doesn't make any difference to my argument. Parsing whether a facet of our behaviour derives principally from nature or nurture is probably a false trail as the two are pretty well mixed up in everything. Moreover, whichever of the two this behaviour does principally emerge from I still think it's possible to see the negative impact of disproportionate sexual attention which women receive and criticise it.

You've made it repeatedly clear that you trust in the benevolence of our natures, so I think that if you can't be moved to recognise the injustices which a position like that (I insist it's a social darwinist position) entails then I think we're at the point where our part of this discourse is no longer helpful.

No hard feelings despite that!

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@medium-density,

the coercion required to consistently move people from their natures to your conception of "right" requires a police state, which most feminists are down with but I am not.

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@hawkeye10,

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the coercion required to consistently move people from their natures to your conception of "right" requires a police state, which most feminists are down with but I am not.

Racism is arguably just as natural as sexism, and many western countries have reduced (but not eradicated) racism in their cultures seemingly without recourse to fascism.

Sexism has also reduced, but is not eradicated. All I'm saying is I see their point, when feminists object to stuff like bikini baristas, and that we might hope to see a better arrangement in our society.

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@medium-density,

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Sexism has also reduced, but is not eradicated. All I'm saying is I see their point, when feminists object to stuff like bikini baristas, and that we might hope to see a better arrangement in our society.

the fix used to get what was wanted on racism is being used in parts of europe where by law gender references and differences are illuminated as best as the law will allow.

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Though it may sound eccentric, Egalia's approach is not really a fringe one. Ms. Rajalin, who is also a director of six other preschools, says that she is only following directives set out by the government. The Swedish national curriculum for preschools, published in 1998, states: "Preschools should counteract traditional gender patterns and gender roles. In preschools, girls and boys should have the same opportunities to test and develop abilities and interests without being limited by stereotypical gender roles."

Ingrid Lindskog of the Swedish National Agency for Education says that striving for equality should be integral to schooling. "Equality issues should be weaved into the lessons. It should inform how teachers plan their classes, put together groups, and how they react to pupils treating each other badly – if a boy oppresses a girl, for instance, or the other way around," she says. And it is not just preschools who are obliged to integrate gender awareness into their pedagogy. "All Swedish schools have a responsibility to counteract traditional gender patterns," says Ms. Lindskog.

Last fall, nearly 200 teachers gathered in Stockholm to discuss how to avoid "traditional gender patterns" in schools. The conference was part of a research project run by the National Agency for Education and supported by the Delegation for Equality in Schools. This approach is now being emulated abroad.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0407/In-Sweden-a-debate-over-whether-gender-equality-has-gone-too-far/(page)/2

NOT FOR ME! I love love love the differences between men and women, I have no wish to rub them out.

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@medium-density,

Why do you keep using the word "sexism" for something that isn't any worse than any equal interaction between consenting adults. If the ways men and women choose to flirt with each other is an example of "sexism" than the word "sexism" has no meaning.

There are examples of injustices, for example equal pay. When I look at the data of male and female salaries and see unequal pay for equivalent work, I am very happy to say that that is an example of "sexism" and I will agree that that is something that we as a society should work to change.

The fact is that I enjoy seeing women who are scantily clad. And, it is also true that women don't enjoy seeing me scantily clad. Is this a injustice that we need to do something about? (If you think so, I am open to ideas on how to get women interested in my scantily clad body).

Racism is never a matter of equal consenting adults. Racism is always a matter of injustice.

It seems like you are defining "sexism" in such a way that it applies to things that aren't at all harmful or unjust.

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@maxdancona,

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If the ways men and women choose to flirt with each other is an example of "sexism" than the word "sexism" has no meaning.

Why do you keep bringing up flirting? No one has decried consensual flirtation here or elsewhere.

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The fact is that I enjoy seeing women who are scantily clad. And, it is also true that women don't enjoy seeing me scantily clad.

Many feminists seem to think that a society (or a biology) which particularly rewards women for their nakedness is worth critiquing. I agree with them. We've been moving away from the view of women as good for nothing but child-rearing and child-making over the last two centuries, and continued focus on their attractiveness, their child-making potential, is something that ups the volume on a harmful narrative which endures today.

It's also possible for women to be on the wrong side of this debate. Internalised misogyny exists. One historical example which jumps to mind is that of Queen Victoria, who vehemently opposed the campaign for women's suffrage. She called it a mad, wicked folly. I don't say that bikini baristas are mad, or wicked, but their consent, their free-choice in this context, is not an unvexatious thing. Our culture still ogles women, and they have become a part of that culture now.

I agree that people should be free to dress and behave as they like so long as no reasonable harm befalls others as a result. I suppose I'm arguing that harm can come from scenarios such as the this. By such arguments we may hope to change peoples' minds about wearing a bikini while serving coffee, and about endorsing those who wear bikinis while serving coffee.

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Can we talk about feminism?

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