Can we talk about feminism?

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

a sizeable faction if the feminists are currently pushing to outlaw all porn

I don't know who exactly you are referring to as "the feminists"--let alone what would constitute a "sizable faction" of this group.

There are people who consider themselves feminist pornographers. Are you aware of that?

There are feminists who distinguish between poronography and erotia and see erotica as promoting positive pro-woman values. There are feminists who oppose only pornography that depicts violence toward woman, but not other types. There are feminists who support pornography because they oppose censorship. There are feminists who never think about pornography.

And radical feminists, who oppose all pornography, were considerably more vocal decades ago, and never constituted anything beyond a very small group.

It's the social consevatives, and religous issues groups, who make the most noise about pornography, not feminists.

And those are the same people making a big issue of the bikini baristas, not feminists.

I think you are essentially unaquainted with feminism, and, on top of that, you fail to see that it comprises a very wide range of views.

1 Reply

@firefly,

right, no one can talk about "the feminists " because the tent is so big that the term does not mean anything, up till the point that you decide that making a claim about "the feminists" helps your argument.

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@Setanta,

What about fashion models? Women are higher paid than men in that profession. What happens to the objectification rational when we consider that? Are male fashion models being exploited?

Quote:

For me, the important questions would be: why is the same technique used in advertising which rather obviously targets women? What could account for the success of the method

I recall, from back in my advertising days, the argument that men imagined themselves as the partner of a beautiful woman in an ad and that women imagined themselves as the woman in the ad -- so the same woman could appeal to either gender by cashing in on their fantasy.

I think the computer ad you posted had a lot of thought go into it. Mothers might look at that ad and imagine their daughters -- beautiful in a normal way, ripe but not erotic, studious -- and they're probably going to discuss the ad with the kid's father before making a big cash outlay on a computer so the ad gets passed on to him where he might see his daughter or he might just see a cute, busty girl. I think they chose their model very well.

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@panzade,

That is a very good question!

I don't know if it impedes women from enjoying their sexuality but I think that it does them to call it into question.

Women are very quick to label a woman as "slutty" if she's frank about her sexuality.

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@boomerang,

when I have my wife act slutty in public the men almost always love it and the women almost always hate it. why? I am guessing that women know that men tend to like sluts so any woman who will go above and beyond to give men what they want makes other women look bad in comparison, and are perceived to be a treat to their relationships.

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@firefly,

Quote:

they are just coffee servers in a uniform that's designed to draw, and manipulate, male patrons into buying their coffee at one place rather than another.

This really isn't a feminist issue.

Really?

I would agree that things have changed dramatically, but I don't agree that we are completely out of the dark ages.

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@hawkeye10,

Off topic but you've reminded me of a story --

I worked for a large company that threw a big party every year for all of their clients. I knew most of the people who attended, some better than others.

One year there was a woman dancing, not overly provocative or anything, but she was amazing -- one of the best dancers I'd ever seen. Men were lining up for a chance to dance. There was something about her that didn't intimidate them -- it was really something to see.

I finally said something like "Who in the heck is that woman?" and a man at the table said "Why do you ask?". I replied "She's such an amazing dancer. She even makes anyone dancing with her look good."

She turned out to be the wife of the man I was talking to. He said he hated to dance but enjoyed watching her have fun. He liked seeing her get so much attention knowing that she was going home with him.

I thought they must have a pretty rocking marriage.

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@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

Quote:
they are just coffee servers in a uniform that's designed to draw, and manipulate, male patrons into buying their coffee at one place rather than another.

This really isn't a feminist issue.

Really?

I would agree that things have changed dramatically, but I don't agree that we are completely out of the dark ages.

looking at the quality of societal conversation, science and the rule of law there is a really good argument that we are entering a new dark age.

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@boomerang,

Quote:

That is a very good question!

I don't know if you saw Miley Cyrus on the MTV awards but it shocked a lot of women, a lot of liberal women and feminists

I'm glad she's comfortable with herself but I feel bad that a lot of parents won't let their kids follow this grown-up Hannah Montana.

There is a bit of a double standard still...as the song says "Guys Do It....All The Time"

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@panzade,

miley did not do anything new or unusual for this show. where she gets not liked is because she is going to do what she wants to do and she does not give a **** how you feel about it.....she is the anti-victim. so not cool in this day and age.

edit: miley is the fulfillment of the original ideals if feminism, back before they went into partnership with the state and decided that what they really wanted to spend their time doing was running everone elses lives....

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@panzade,

I did see videos and read some commentary on it after the show. Honestly, I felt kind of bad for her. I think it must be hard to grow up under a microscope and suddenly have to assert your adulthood. I guess I kind of get why she did it in such a big way, on such a big stage (there's no going back now!).

It seemed to me to be a adolescent idea of grown up behavior though, which made it a little creepy.

I hope her handlers don't make her apologize for it, as many people are suggesting that she should. She's out of the closet now, so to speak, and she needs to own it.

1 Reply

@panzade,

panzade wrote:

I don't know if you saw Miley Cyrus on the MTV awards but it shocked a lot of women, a lot of liberal women and feminists

I think it just shocked a lot of people. Full stop.

Most of the photos I've seen have been of Will Smith and his family - all of them looking startled.

I feel bad for her. She can't win being sexy or being cute right now.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

panzade wrote:

I don't know if you saw Miley Cyrus on the MTV awards but it shocked a lot of women, a lot of liberal women and feminists

I think it just shocked a lot of people. Full stop.

Most of the photos I've seen have been of Will Smith and his family - all of them looking startled.

I feel bad for her. She can't win being sexy or being cute right now.

The Will Smith photo was taken during Gaga's performance. Smile

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@ehBeth,

Re Cyrus, that was just a really, really bad business decision. Doesn't she have people with the balls to say "doing this act is one of the worst ideas I've heard of."

She wasn't being sexy IMNSHO, just ludicrous looking to men, women, children and farm animals.

You can come out as a full grown sexual adult and not look like an idiot.

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@edgarblythe,

I guess I don't keep up enough with entertainment news eh Laughing

(still not clear how what Ms. Cyrus does fits into a discussion of feminism but that's ok, I don't have to understand)

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

what Ms. Cyrus does fits into a discussion of feminism but that's ok,

It's weird eh beth but to me, it's a lot more relevant than bikini baristas

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@boomerang,

I seriously doubt that her people are actually unhappy...."I dont care what you think" has long been the major part of her brand identity.

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@panzade,

The bikini barristas and Ms. Cyrus' behaviour seem the same to me - business decisions.

Maybe it's an indirect outcome of feminism of 200+ years ago in that more women are free to make business decisions without others interference? dunno.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Quote:

(still not clear how what Ms. Cyrus does fits into a discussion of feminism but that's ok, I don't have to understand)

Ms. Cyrus' routine fits into a discussion of feminism about as well as Michael Jackson's crotch-grabbing dances would have fit into a discussion of men's rights.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

The bikini barristas and Ms. Cyrus' behaviour seem the same to me - business decisions.

Maybe it's an indirect outcome of feminism of 200+ years ago in that more women are free to make business decisions without others interference? dunno.

and what Van Gogh put onto canvas was a business decision correct?

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Can we talk about feminism?

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