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I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 13 Oct, 2013 04:59 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

What beliefs?


Take a look at the title of this thread...and ask igm about that.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Sun 13 Oct, 2013 05:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I'll ask igm if I want to know about his beliefs.
I was just wondering which beliefs you were referring to. I am not going to claim that there are no beliefs in Buddhism. That would be ridiculous.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 13 Oct, 2013 05:44 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I'll ask igm if I want to know about his beliefs.
I was just wondering which beliefs you were referring to. I am not going to claim that there are no beliefs in Buddhism. That would be ridiculous.


Right...it would be.

So I am talking about the beliefs that we both acknowledge exist, Cyracuz.

Pick one or two of them. They are what I am talking about.

It is a "belief" system...just as all religions are "belief systems." It does not have some of the elements of most religions...so I understand your concern when "religion" is used as an identifier. But most people understand it to be a religion...and if you were to query Google, for instance, about "religious affiliation in America"...you would see a category for Buddhists.
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Sun 13 Oct, 2013 06:03 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I honestly can't think of one.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 13 Oct, 2013 06:35 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I honestly can't think of one.


Well then, why did you say, "I am not going to claim that there are no beliefs in Buddhism. That would be ridiculous?"
JLNobody
 
  2  
Sun 13 Oct, 2013 10:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, I think that Buddhists, like, Igm, IRFrank*, myself and others here who do not live in a Buddhist culture with an elaborate mythology, customs and ritual system are more inclined to "practice" aspects of Buddhism having to do with spiritual development rather than issues of doctrine or belief pertaining to aspirations of an afterlife. There are, of course, beliefs and ethics, but as I see it they are secondary compared to their primacy in Western Abrahamic religions. Western Buddhists (especially those following versions of zen and vipassana) focus more on something called "enlightenment", but that has more to do with a kind of psychospiritual "sanity"rather than the kind of holiness one tends to associate with Catholic saints.

*Pardon my presumption guys.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 03:24 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Frank, I think that Buddhists, like, Igm, IRFrank*, myself and others here who do not live in a Buddhist culture with an elaborate mythology, customs and ritual system are more inclined to "practice" aspects of Buddhism having to do with spiritual development rather than issues of doctrine or belief pertaining to aspirations of an afterlife. There are, of course, beliefs and ethics, but as I see it they are secondary compared to their primacy in Western Abrahamic religions. Western Buddhists (especially those following versions of zen and vipassana) focus more on something called "enlightenment", but that has more to do with a kind of psychospiritual "sanity"rather than the kind of holiness one tends to associate with Catholic saints.

*Pardon my presumption guys.


You seem to be saying that the "beliefs" of Buddhists are different from the "beliefs" of other religions.

But "beliefs" are "beliefs."


The attainment of "enlightenment" is a "belief"; the "no self" is a "belief"; the "Buddha attained enlightenment" is a "belief"; the "Buddha can teach us how to attain enlightenment" is a belief.

It is a "belief system."
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 04:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
Because it would be ridiculous.

But if you cannot give an example of a buddhistic belief, why did you say there are too many beliefs in buddhism for you to consider it as anything but a religion?
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 07:23 am
@JLNobody,
JL, you are correct in your assumption, at least in my case. I will say, that in my case, Buddhism is a behavior system I try to follow. The 4 basic truths, the 8 precepts, are simple truths that guide my behavior. They are not divine. They are simple facts. Truth revealed. Frank, you can call that a 'belief' if you wish, but it is an easily justified belief. And it is much more 'believable' to me than accepting a supreme being concept. It is also more useful, in my opinion. I don't say this out of criticism, just explaining my position.

I realize that is a pragmatic approach and that there is much more to Buddha's teaching. But that is why I continue to meditate and follow Buddha's teachings. Yes, there is some 'faith' necessary to continue study, but to me it is rational faith in a teacher, based upon past success. Not faith in some outside supreme being that may or may not exist.

So, we can argue about definition of belief or belief system, but it is clear to me at least that Buddhism is different. Buddha never said, 'believe in ME'. He said, 'listen to what I have to say and believe it'. There is a difference.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 10:41 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Because it would be ridiculous.

But if you cannot give an example of a buddhistic belief, why did you say there are too many beliefs in buddhism for you to consider it as anything but a religion?


I gave you several, Cyracuz.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 10:43 am
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

JL, you are correct in your assumption, at least in my case. I will say, that in my case, Buddhism is a behavior system I try to follow. The 4 basic truths, the 8 precepts, are simple truths that guide my behavior. They are not divine. They are simple facts. Truth revealed. Frank, you can call that a 'belief' if you wish, but it is an easily justified belief. And it is much more 'believable' to me than accepting a supreme being concept. It is also more useful, in my opinion. I don't say this out of criticism, just explaining my position.

I realize that is a pragmatic approach and that there is much more to Buddha's teaching. But that is why I continue to meditate and follow Buddha's teachings. Yes, there is some 'faith' necessary to continue study, but to me it is rational faith in a teacher, based upon past success. Not faith in some outside supreme being that may or may not exist.

So, we can argue about definition of belief or belief system, but it is clear to me at least that Buddhism is different. Buddha never said, 'believe in ME'. He said, 'listen to what I have to say and believe it'. There is a difference.




If he said "believe it"...it is a belief system. That is what I called it...a belief system.
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 12:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Would you call mathematics a belief system?

I don't disagree with you. It is a belief system. But it is different than a belief in a God or gods.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 12:46 pm
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

Would you call mathematics a belief system?


Probably not.

Quote:

I don't disagree with you. It is a belief system. But it is different than a belief in a God or gods.


I think it is a "belief system" about the nature of the REALITY of existence. Guesses are made about the true nature of that REALITY.

The problem I have with the "belief systems" of religion...is that they are guesses about the true nature of REALITY.

For you...the difference between the belief systems of other religions and Buddhism is significant; for me, not significant at all.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 01:57 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I would say that there are beliefs and there are beliefs. Some are aspects of explicit ideological systems and some exist more passively within cultural configurations. We mustn't assume they are all the same because the share some traits in contrast to other kinds of mental behaviors.
In some religious systems certain beliefs are held because it is meritorious to do so (they'll get one into heaven). In Buddhism the beliefs that I acknowledge to exist are simply assumptions about how the world works: if you do this you might attain that, but only in this world, not in some afterlife.
The form of Buddhism I practice makes no reference to "souls" having other lives or even karmic justice and reincarnation except in the most metaphorical ways. My fellow practicioners and teachers rarely ever mention such terms.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 02:43 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

I would say that there are beliefs and there are beliefs. Some are aspects of explicit ideological systems and some exist more passively within cultural configurations. We mustn't assume they are all the same because the share some traits in contrast to other kinds of mental behaviors.
In some religious systems certain beliefs are held because it is meritorious to do so (they'll get one into heaven). In Buddhism the beliefs that I acknowledge to exist are simply assumptions about how the world works: if you do this you might attain that, but only in this world, not in some afterlife.
The form of Buddhism I practice makes no reference to "souls" having other lives or even karmic justice and reincarnation except in the most metaphorical ways. My fellow practicioners and teachers rarely ever mention such terms.


JL…

…I understand what you are saying, but I suspect you are not carefully considering the implications of some of the things you have said.

Essentially, you are saying that you have “beliefs”…but that the “beliefs” are different (in content and QUALITY) from the beliefs of what you call “other ideological systems.”

Fine. And I agree…as to the content.

But as for quality…I see all of the “beliefs” to be blind guesses about the true nature of REALITY.

Christians certainly have their “beliefs”…and the most assuredly think theirs are special. Some go so far as to assert that they KNOW some of the things the are guessing.

The fact that the form of Buddhism you “practice” does not get into some of that soul, god, afterlife stuff…does not make it any less “belief”…and insofar as you stretch some of that “belief” into assertions about the true nature of the REALITY of existence…it almost certainly is blind guessing.

I mean no disrespect to you in what I am saying here. I am sharing my thoughts on something I HAVE thought out very carefully…ON MY OWN…without a Jesus or Buddha to guide me.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 04:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Fine. Thanks for your considered response.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 07:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
That you did. I missed them at first.

I think what I am getting at is that while there are many beliefs in Buddhism, they do not have the same sacred status as beliefs do in other religions. You can believe what you want. Buddhism is about testing the merit of your beliefs, and discovering what the beliefs you hold do to you.
And the goal isn't to please some deity in the hopes of rewards in the afterlife. The goal is happiness. A simple enough idea, though who can manage to be happy all the time?
JLNobody
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 07:17 pm
@Cyracuz,
Amen
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 08:09 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

That you did. I missed them at first.

I think what I am getting at is that while there are many beliefs in Buddhism, they do not have the same sacred status as beliefs do in other religions. You can believe what you want. Buddhism is about testing the merit of your beliefs, and discovering what the beliefs you hold do to you.
And the goal isn't to please some deity in the hopes of rewards in the afterlife. The goal is happiness. A simple enough idea, though who can manage to be happy all the time?


Same response I made to JL....with the addition that we are now in agreement that Buddhism is a "belief system."

That is what Christianity is also. And Judaism.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 Oct, 2013 08:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
By the way, Cyracuz...one of the other "beliefs" of Buddhism is...

...the "belief" that the beliefs of Buddhism are somehow appreciably different from the beliefs of other religions.
 

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