I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Frank, is the assassin's status as "a Buddhist" presented by you as proof of the existence of the ego?
Has no one read my recent post?

NOT IN ANY WAY.

I have no idea if there is a self...or soul...or (now) ego...and I certainly have not argued that there is such a thing...or that there is not.

Personally, I see the question as being so difficult to answer...it is better to simply leave it at "I do not know."

So what is your point, JL?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Aside from what you may "know", what about the feelings you have regarding unity with or separation from the world, i.e, the objects of perception. Do you feel you are your perceptions or are they things that are happening to a separate "you" (ego)? Don't tell me you don't know how you feel.

2 Replies

@JLNobody,

The subtle difference between the assumption of a constant "I" who "does not know" and the understanding of a shifting "I" which is evoked by contexts (such as responses to questions), is what escapes Frank. He retreats from such contexts to what his integrity requirement sees as a "constant I" in a safe position, when it is merely a position of blinkered limbo or "context negation" which assigns all such questions to merely "another I like him who does not know but won't admit it".

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Aside from what you may "know", what about the feelings you have regarding unity with or separation from the world, i.e, the objects of perception. Do you feel you are your perceptions or are they things that are happening to a separate "you" (ego)? Don't tell me you don't know how you feel.

Atheists (or at least some of them) "feel" there are no gods. Theists "feel" there are gods. There is a possibility that their "feelings" have absolutely NOTHING to do with the REALITY.

You, and people like Fresco, keep insisting that you have open minds on the issue...but you do not. You are "certain" you have the answer...and that the "feelings" you have create (or are indicitive of) a REALITY.

I do not know...I acknowledge I do not know...and you still denigrate that position.

I want to say this with as much respect as I can, JL…but that is an absurd position for you to take.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

The subtle difference between the assumption of a constant "I" who "does not know" and the understanding of a shifting "I" which is evoked by contexts (such as responses to questions), is what escapes Frank.

I do not make that assumption, Fresco. People like you with closed minds on the issue make those assumptions.

Quote:

He retreats from such contexts to what his integrity requirement sees as a "constant I" in a safe position, when it is merely a position of blinkered limbo or "context negation" which assigns all such questions to merely "another I like him who does not know but won't admit it".

That is nonsense, but I suspect you will never be able to see or acknowledge that it is. But please keep talking, because with each post you show that you are already set in a position of supposed knowledge of the REALITY.

There is a bit of humor in that.

1 Reply

@igm,

Hi igm,

Thanks for the link in this post :http://able2know.org/topic/220485-30#post-5441344. It was quite interesting.

I found, regarding the authors views on self, that I agreed with much, and disagreed with much.

I found these two paragraphs particularly interesting :

Quote:

Extraordinary in the sense that it can direct itself to where it wants to go. Extraordinary in the sense that it no longer gets perturbed by everyday events. And when the mind can concentrate, then it experiences states which it has never known before. To realize that your universe constantly falls apart and comes back together again is a meditative experience. It takes practice, perseverance and patience. And when the mind is unperturbed and still, equanimity, evenmindedness, peacefulness arise.

Oddly enough - some years ago, I decided to learn how to 'grow in the way that I want to grow / acquire the ability to self direct growth'.

In going about acquiring that - as I went, I became less perturbed by events, criticisms, problems etc.

This paragraph reminds me of this journey...yet it comes from a very different perspective than 'there is no self' - it may even be the opposite side of the same coin.

That jewel is self. Once it is gone, all the burden of looking after it, all the fears about it, all the barring of doors and windows and heart and mind is no longer necessary. You can just go and enjoy yourself while you're still in this body. After proper investigation, the frightening aspect of losing this thing that seemed so precious turns out to be the only relief and release from worry that there is.

Quote:

That jewel is self. Once it is gone, all the burden of looking after it, all the fears about it, all the barring of doors and windows and heart and mind is no longer necessary. You can just go and enjoy yourself while you're still in this body. After proper investigation, the frightening aspect of losing this thing that seemed so precious turns out to be the only relief and release from worry that there is.

And just as oddly...on that journey, I learned how to recognise walls and how to unbar doors, and learned how to recognise fears and how to let them go (the ones that no longer served a purpose that is)...this paragraph reminded me of that, and yet it came from a completely different perspective.

The difference reminded me something I read once - the difference between self-hypnosis and meditation...self-hypnosis seeks to achieve change/growth by filling the mind, while meditation seeks to achieve growth/change by emptying the mind...the self-hypnosis has a specific goal, while meditations goal is 'nothingness'. I'm sure that's not quite an accurate representation of each field...but it's the general difference compared to the above to quotes & my experience that I'm comparing here Smile

Very interesting.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

.. while meditations goal is 'nothingness'. I'm sure that's not quite an accurate representation of each field...but it's the general difference compared to the above to quotes & my experience that I'm comparing here

Very interesting.

Hi vikorr, I'm glad you have a mental journey that works for you. The goal of Buddhist meditation is not 'nothingness' it is the letting go of views and concepts so that one can transcend those by having the space created by the 'letting go', it is filled with a direct experience which one could not have guessed was there but which still allows everyday life to continue but seen directly and not through views and concepts.. in the beginning of course there are some subtly views and concepts and glimpses of reality that is beyond them.

Your way may very well work if there is only one life. If this isn't a dreamlike state where life and death are just part of an ever changing dream that only waking up can stop.

2 Replies

@igm,

Amended and added one more sentence to my post above.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

fresco wrote

Quote:

the assumption of a constant "I" who "does not know"

Frank wrote

Quote:

I do not make that assumption

So are you telling us that those hundreds of posts of yours asserting that you "do not know" actually came from ephemeral facets of "self" or that we should ignore them as vacuous platitudes ? Which ?

Are you also claiming that your simplistic statement

Quote:

people like you with closed minds

is not an act of projectively dumping a respondent into a catch-all derogatory category thereby protecting your entrenched self-image from intrusions ?

1 Reply

Buddhist meditation arises when guessing ceases. It is a direct non-dual experience of reality.

Direct experience cannot be a guess because a guess, is a guess 'about' direct experience and not direct experience itself. Direct experience is that which appears 'before' a guess is applied to it or 'after' a guess about it, is let go of.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

vikorr wrote:

.. while meditations goal is 'nothingness'. I'm sure that's not quite an accurate representation of each field...but it's the general difference compared to the above to quotes & my experience that I'm comparing here

Very interesting.

Hi vikorr, I'm glad you have a mental journey that works for you. The goal of Buddhist meditation is not 'nothingness' it is the letting go of views and concepts so that one can transcend those by having the space created by the 'letting go', it is filled with a direct experience which one could not have guessed was there but which still allows everyday life to continue but seen directly and not through views and concepts.. in the beginning of course there are some subtly views and concepts and glimpses of reality that is beyond them.

Your way may very well work if there is only one life. If this isn't a dreamlike state where life and death are just part of an ever changing dream that only waking up can stop.

And you know you are not deluding yourself...HOW????

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

fresco wrote

Quote:
the assumption of a constant "I" who "does not know"

Frank wrote

Quote:
I do not make that assumption

So are you telling us that those hundreds of posts of yours asserting that you "do not know" actually came from ephemeral facets of "self" or that we should ignore them as vacuous platitudes ? Which ?

Are you also claiming that your simplistic statement

Quote:
people like you with closed minds
is not an act of projectively dumping a respondent into a catch-all derogatory category thereby protecting your entrenched self-image from intrusions ?

At some point, Fresco...if you are even close to as intelligent and insightful as you would have the forum members think you are...

...you will finally recognize and acknowledge that what you think about "self" and non-dualism...

...may be completely wrong.

Or at least one would hope that you will.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

Buddhist meditation arises when guessing ceases. It is a direct non-dual experience of reality.

You KNOW that How????

Quote:

Direct experience cannot be a guess because a guess, is a guess 'about' direct experience and not direct experience itself. Direct experience is that which appears 'before' a guess is applied to it or 'after' a guess about it, is let go of.

C'mon, igm...and the rest of you guys. It is okay to acknowledge that you MAY BE wrong.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

And one might hope that over the years we have tought you something about the facile categorization of "right" and "wrong" inappropriately applied to common self-observations. Clearly not !

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank, earlier you stated that you know you are sitting at your keyboard. Am I correct in stating that? Based upon your strict definition of knowing, how do you know that? Could that observation be an illusion?

1 Reply

Thanks, Fresco, Igm, Vikorr and IRFrank for a morning of insightful contributions.

1 Reply

@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

Frank, earlier you stated that you know you are sitting at your keyboard. Am I correct in stating that? Based upon your strict definition of knowing, how do you know that? Could that observation be an illusion?

ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY THAT OBSERVATION COULD BE AN ILLUSION!

The comment actually contained some sort of indication of that...I was merely showing that I am not being absurd when I talk about "knowing"...that I could easily say "I know 2 + 2 = 4; that the name on my birth certificate is Frank Apisa; and that I am sitting in my den typing at my keyboard.

BUT THE ENTIRETY OF WHAT WE SUPPOSE WE SEE, SENSE, AND FEEL....MAY BE AN ILLUSION.

The answer to your question is: YES.

Not really all that hard to recognize and honestly acknowledge. I cannot help but wonder why the people from your side of this issue have so much difficulty with it.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Thanks, Fresco, Igm, Vikorr and IRFrank for a morning of insightful contributions.

Jeez...you must accidentally have left me off this list.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I think that was supposed to be a list of Buddhists.

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@Frank Apisa,

I am just trying to get an understanding of the definition of 'know'. How you can know something and we cannot. I think the real issue here may be an epistemological one. That's probably a longer thread than this one.

Ben Franklin once said, "There are only two things certain, death and taxes".

What would be on your list?

1 Reply

I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

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