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Reality - thing or phenomenon?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 11:36 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

To say that for change to occur there must be something--some substantive thing--to be the subject of change is to be constrained not by physical reality; it is to be constrained by grammar, i.e., the rule: a predicate must have a subject.


That is a problem with language...and with the difficulty humans have to understand and communicate about REALITY. It says nothing of interest about REALITY itself.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 01:54 pm
@fresco,
The triangle is both there (in the sense that to draw this drawing, you'd have to draw a triangle first, and erase it later) and not there (just 3 pacmen whose mouths happen to be aligned)...

How often do you see these in real life? Not that once in a while you don't see something hard to interpret in 3D but I've always been able to make sense of it when it happened to me...

So about this hammer...?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 03:19 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I am questioning the assumption igm...you see without a defined state even if just for a nanosecond you cannot have change or to put in layman terms that which is not anything cannot be mesured become something else, you need identity...so it must be something.

How does a fixed state change from that fixed state? It can't because it's fixed... How can something change without a fixed state? Reality is ineffable precisely because of this paradox. Meditation rests in that paradox.

Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 03:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
It says that maybe we sometimes, for lack of better options, base our assumptions on grammatical criteria that are necessary for expressing an idea, but not for experiencing the idea directly.
It is interesting, because it describes how clever-sounding nonsense might come from someone who is unaware of this 'problem with language'.

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 03:42 pm
@igm,
Change happens like a moving picture happens, the all film is there but you can only see the current frame in time...thus you can reasonably assume there is a set of states from which each state follows. What else would it be ? Space n time allow you to perceive this transition. What is not logical is to say there is no definite state because then nothing works.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 03:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Rather is because grammar is real and works in the same realm reality as a whole does...besides on one occasion he already acknowledge what now he is questioning... Laughing
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 03:50 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Not only that, but it contradicts the very statement they are making, because they are posting their opinions while perceiving the transition of time.

It's really difficult to know how they arrive at their opinions without reference to "our perceptions and our reality."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 04:11 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

It says that maybe we sometimes, for lack of better options, base our assumptions on grammatical criteria that are necessary for expressing an idea, but not for experiencing the idea directly.
It is interesting, because it describes how clever-sounding nonsense might come from someone who is unaware of this 'problem with language'.




Bottom line: There is a difference between trying to describe REALITY...and REALITY.

Not sure of what that paragraph above is supposed to do about that...but it truly does not do it, Cyracuz.

Can you be more explicit?

If so...will you be more explicit?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 05:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
The point is to deliberately not be explicit (objective) but complicated and loose... free roam gazing can be a terrible addiction...Froid probably would associate it with missing your childhood. The thing is they don't offer a model n that's unacceptable, no matter how much good will we try to put at their word...there is nothing there to look at.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 05:26 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

The point is to deliberately not be explicit (objective) but complicated and loose... free roam gazing can be a terrible addiction...Froid probably would associate it with missing your childhood. The thing is they don't offer a model n that's unacceptable, no matter how much good will we try to put at their word...there is nothing there to look at.


I think you are correct here, Fil.

0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jul, 2013 11:46 pm
@Olivier5,
Without the verbally acquired concept "triangle" would you still see it ?
It has been shown that the perception of the Muller Lyer illusion (differential lengths of equal lines with opposit arrow heads) is dependent on living in a culture with perpendicular architecture.
http://imageshack.us/a/img21/2930/583z.jpg
In short we do not merely "receive" visual input from an "external world", we are active participants in the construction of what we call "reality", and culturally /verbally acquired functional concepts are the selective spectacles we cannot avoid. ( Similar evidence on color vision has also been reported)
As humans, we have already acquired verbal concepts like "hammer", "brick", "rock" etc with which we can verbally reconstruct (aka "observe" according to Maturana) a pain reception scenario. Prior to the "pain" writers like Heidegger said that neither the hammer nor the finger had "existence" in the sense that their verbalization was irrelevent to current functioning. ( Consider the scenario where I verbalise the need of a hammer which I believe I have in my shed. I get there to find the handle has rotted away. Is it still "a hammer"... no...functionality is lacking.)

Of course this is a major departure from lay realism, but the point is that there are an infinite number of potential "things" that might be conceptualized to which we never ascribe the lay meaning of "existence".

These are all aspect of the paradigm I have called "relative existence". It requires axioms involving the definition of "life" (see Maturana) and the view that "cognition" is about sustaining structural integrity of living structures (including social structures). Segmentation of the external environment (what we usually call "reality") is a an organizational and verbal aspect of the cognitive process.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 04:26 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Without the verbally acquired concept "triangle" would you still see it ?
It has been shown that the perception of the Muller Lyer illusion (differential lengths of equal lines with opposit arrow heads) is dependent on living in a culture with perpendicular architecture.
http://imageshack.us/a/img21/2930/583z.jpg
In short we do not merely "receive" visual input from an "external world", we are active participants in the construction of what we call "reality", [/size]and culturally /verbally acquired functional concepts are the selective spectacles we cannot avoid. ( Similar evidence on color vision has also been reported)
As humans, we have already acquired verbal concepts like "hammer", "brick", "rock" etc with which we can verbally reconstruct (aka "observe" according to Maturana) a pain reception scenario. Prior to the "pain" writers like Heidegger said that neither the hammer nor the finger had "existence" in the sense that their verbalization was irrelevent to current functioning. ( Consider the scenario where I verbalise the need of a hammer which I believe I have in my shed. I get there to find the handle has rotted away. Is it still "a hammer"... no...functionality is lacking.)

Of course this is a major departure from lay realism, but the point is that there are an infinite number of potential "things" that might be conceptualized to which we never ascribe the lay meaning of "existence".

These are all aspect of the paradigm I have called "relative existence". It requires axioms involving the definition of "life" (see Maturana) and the view that "cognition" is about sustaining structural integrity of living structures (including social structures). Segmentation of the external environment (what we usually call "reality") is a an organizational and verbal aspect of the cognitive process.




Yeah...we are.

But my question would be: Why are you so certain there is no REALITY which is more than "what we call reality?"

Why are you so certain that REALITY is dependent in some way on whether or not humans can understand or perceive it?

igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 05:10 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Change happens like a moving picture happens, the all film is there but you can only see the current frame in time...thus you can reasonably assume there is a set of states from which each state follows.

How is one frame replaced by the next? Where does the previous frame go?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 05:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Because you are applying that word as though you were a God transcendent of all observers and all language users. You might as well use "the Absolute","the Ultimate", or some other nebulous term if you separate "reality" from "functionality". And it is not a question of "knowing" because that word too is inextricably tied to functionality.

Please try thinking about it this time before issuing platitudes from your bunker.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 05:31 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Because you are applying that word as though you were a God transcendent of all observers and all language users. You might as well use "the Absolute","the Ultimate", or some other nebulous term if you separate "reality" from "functionality". And it is not a question of "knowing" because that word too is inextricably tied to functionality.

Please try thinking about it this time before issuing platitudes from your bunker.



I am not in a bunker, Fresco...but I am beginning to think you are.

The question remains: Why are you so sure human understanding impacts on REALITY the way you think it does.

Why are you so certain that REALITY cannot be something totally independent of human thought?

Why are you suggesting I am acting like a GOD by saying I do not know...while you are pretending you do KNOW what REALITY has to be?
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 05:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
Correct. Not a bunker....an intellectual graveyard in which "thinking" is no more.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 06:03 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Correct. Not a bunker....an intellectual graveyard in which "thinking" is no more.



Yup...better to hurl insults than deal with the questions.

Try the questions!
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 06:44 am
@fresco,
Quote:
In short we do not merely "receive" visual input from an "external world", we are active participants in the construction of what we call "reality",

We DO receive sensory inputs, which we then interpret actively to paint this picture in our head.

Quote:
As humans, we have already acquired verbal concepts like "hammer", "brick", "rock" etc with which we can verbally reconstruct (aka "observe" according to Maturana) a pain reception scenario.

According to this theory, babies who can't verbalize yet should be totally immune to the pain caused by hamers smashing their fingers... Did you try that on your newborn yet?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 07:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
There is a difference between trying to describe REALITY...and REALITY.


That sounds sensible.
But is there a difference between perceiving reality ...and reality?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jul, 2013 07:32 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
There is a difference between trying to describe REALITY...and REALITY.


That sounds sensible.
But is there a difference between perceiving reality ...and reality?


I HAVE NO IDEA...AND I HAVE SAID THAT MANY, MANY TIMES.

I HAVE NO IDEA.

My problem is with the people who are absolutely certain there can be no difference.

I want them to explain how they know that.
 

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